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Thread: I have issues

  1. #61
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper
    Yes, unfortunately this arrogance is leading to a drop in American leadership in the world. If (big if, sometimes) US values = freedom, freedom's stock is down and dropping.
    True "freedom" is another, often overlooked, casualty of our foreign policy.

    I'd say the jury is still out on those two. Way too early to tell in Iraq (in a historical sense). Nicaragua seems to be slipping back into Sandinista control, which IMO is a tragedy.

    We couldn't know what might have happened in Central America had the sandinistas not been held in check. Hard to say that Nicaragua is in worse shape today due to US intervention in the '80s.
    I wouldn't hesitate at all to say that, actually. Many Americans don't understand the full story of our intervention in that country--they believe, mistakenly, that it was a mere extension of the Cold War. However, the atrocities committed by U.S.-supported troops in Nicaragua during the mid-80s were so severe that the World Court found against the U.S. for war crimes in a matter brought forth by nicaragua. Only America's refusal to accept the authority of the World Court prevented us from being bound to the payment of reparations which the Court recommended. If you're interested, I would suggest reading "Contra-Terror in Nicaragua" by Reed Brody. It's merely a collection of documented atrocities Mr. Brody collected while on a fact-finding mission to nicaragua during 1984-85, and it's very eye-opening in its candor.


    Just realized this is my 1,000 post. Didn't plan on using it on politics.

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  3. #62
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster
    Don't believe all the negitive stuff on the liberal anti-war news stations That is why over 80% of the active military voted for Bush.
    Still waiting for some verication for this statement.

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    Re: I have issues

    The Swift Boating of Cindy Sheehan
    By FRANK RICH

    CINDY SHEEHAN couldn't have picked a more apt date to begin the vigil that ambushed a president: Aug. 6 was the fourth anniversary of that fateful 2001 Crawford vacation day when George W. Bush responded to an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" by going fishing. On this Aug. 6 the president was no less determined to shrug off bad news. Though 14 marine reservists had been killed days earlier by a roadside bomb in Haditha, his national radio address that morning made no mention of Iraq. Once again Mr. Bush was in his bubble, ensuring that he wouldn't see Ms. Sheehan coming. So it goes with a president who hasn't foreseen any of the setbacks in the war he fabricated against an enemy who did not attack inside the United States in 2001.

    When these setbacks happen in Iraq itself, the administration punts. But when they happen at home, there's a game plan. Once Ms. Sheehan could no longer be ignored, the Swift Boating began. Character assassination is the Karl Rove tactic of choice, eagerly mimicked by his media surrogates, whenever the White House is confronted by a critic who challenges it on matters of war. The Swift Boating is especially vicious if the critic has more battle scars than a president who connived to serve stateside and a vice president who had "other priorities" during Vietnam.

    The most prominent smear victims have been Bush political opponents with heroic Vietnam résumés: John McCain, Max Cleland, John Kerry. But the list of past targets stretches from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke to Specialist Thomas Wilson, the grunt who publicly challenged Donald Rumsfeld about inadequately armored vehicles last December. The assault on the whistle-blower Joseph Wilson - the diplomat described by the first President Bush as "courageous" and "a true American hero" for confronting Saddam to save American hostages in 1991 - was so toxic it may yet send its perpetrators to jail.

    True to form, the attack on Cindy Sheehan surfaced early on Fox News, where she was immediately labeled a "crackpot" by Fred Barnes. The right-wing blogosphere quickly spread tales of her divorce, her angry Republican in-laws, her supposed political flip-flops, her incendiary sloganeering and her association with known ticket-stub-carrying attendees of "Fahrenheit 9/11." Rush Limbaugh went so far as to declare that Ms. Sheehan's "story is nothing more than forged documents - there's nothing about it that's real."

    But this time the Swift Boating failed, utterly, and that failure is yet another revealing historical marker in this summer's collapse of political support for the Iraq war.

    When the Bush mob attacks critics like Ms. Sheehan, its highest priority is to change the subject. If we talk about Richard Clarke's character, then we stop talking about the administration's pre-9/11 inattentiveness to terrorism. If Thomas Wilson is trashed as an insubordinate plant of the "liberal media," we forget the Pentagon's abysmal failure to give our troops adequate armor (a failure that persists today, eight months after he spoke up). If we focus on Joseph Wilson's wife, we lose the big picture of how the administration twisted intelligence to gin up the threat of Saddam's nonexistent W.M.D.'s.

    The hope this time was that we'd change the subject to Cindy Sheehan's "wacko" rhetoric and the opportunistic left-wing groups that have attached themselves to her like barnacles. That way we would forget about her dead son. But if much of the 24/7 media has taken the bait, much of the public has not.

    The backdrops against which Ms. Sheehan stands - both that of Mr. Bush's what-me-worry vacation and that of Iraq itself - are perfectly synergistic with her message of unequal sacrifice and fruitless carnage. Her point would endure even if the messenger were shot by a gun-waving Crawford hothead or she never returned to Texas from her ailing mother's bedside or the president folded the media circus by actually meeting with her.

    The public knows that what matters this time is Casey Sheehan's story, not the mother who symbolizes it. Cindy Sheehan's bashers, you'll notice, almost never tell her son's story. They are afraid to go there because this young man's life and death encapsulate not just the noble intentions of those who went to fight this war but also the hubris, incompetence and recklessness of those who gave the marching orders.

    Specialist Sheehan was both literally and figuratively an Eagle Scout: a church group leader and honor student whose desire to serve his country drove him to enlist before 9/11, in 2000. He died with six other soldiers on a rescue mission in Sadr City on April 4, 2004, at the age of 24, the week after four American security workers had been mutilated in Falluja and two weeks after he arrived in Iraq. This was almost a year after the president had declared the end of "major combat operations" from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.

    According to the account of the battle by John F. Burns in The Times, the insurgents who slaughtered Specialist Sheehan and his cohort were militiamen loyal to Moktada al-Sadr, the anti-American Shiite cleric. The Americans probably didn't stand a chance. As Mr. Burns reported, members of "the new Iraqi-trained police and civil defense force" abandoned their posts at checkpoints and police stations "almost as soon as the militiamen appeared with their weapons, leaving the militiamen in unchallenged control."

    Yet in the month before Casey Sheehan's death, Mr. Rumsfeld typically went out of his way to inflate the size and prowess of these Iraqi security forces, claiming in successive interviews that there were "over 200,000 Iraqis that have been trained and equipped" and that they were "out on the front line taking the brunt of the violence." We'll have to wait for historians to tell us whether this and all the other Rumsfeld propaganda came about because he was lied to by subordinates or lying to himself or lying to us or some combination thereof.

    As The Times reported last month, even now, more than a year later, a declassified Pentagon assessment puts the total count of Iraqi troops and police officers at 171,500, with only "a small number" able to fight insurgents without American assistance. As for Moktada al-Sadr, he remains as much a player as ever in the new "democratic" Iraq. He controls one of the larger blocs in the National Assembly. His loyalists may have been responsible for last month's apparently vengeful murder of Steven Vincent, the American freelance journalist who wrote in The Times that Mr. Sadr's followers had infiltrated Basra's politics and police force.

    Casey Sheehan's death in Iraq could not be more representative of the war's mismanagement and failure, but it is hardly singular. Another mother who has journeyed to Crawford, Celeste Zappala, wrote last Sunday in New York's Daily News of how her son, Sgt. Sherwood Baker, was also killed in April 2004 - in Baghdad, where he was providing security for the Iraq Survey Group, which was charged with looking for W.M.D.'s "well beyond the admission by David Kay that they didn't exist."

    As Ms. Zappala noted with rage, her son's death came only a few weeks after Mr. Bush regaled the Radio and Television Correspondents' Association banquet in Washington with a scripted comedy routine featuring photos of him pretending to look for W.M.D.'s in the Oval Office. "We'd like to know if he still finds humor in the fabrications that justified the war that killed my son," Ms. Zappala wrote. (Perhaps so: surely it was a joke that one of the emissaries Mr. Bush sent to Cindy Sheehan in Crawford was Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser who took responsibility for allowing the 16 errant words about doomsday uranium into the president's prewar State of the Union speech.)

    Mr. Bush's stand-up shtick for the Beltway press corps wasn't some aberration; it was part of the White House's political plan for keeping the home front cool. America was to yuk it up, party on and spend its tax cuts heedlessly while the sacrifice of an inadequately manned all-volunteer army in Iraq was kept out of most Americans' sight and minds. This is why the Pentagon issued a directive at the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom forbidding news coverage of "deceased military personnel returning to or departing from" air bases. It's why Mr. Bush, unlike Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter, has not attended funeral services for the military dead. It's why January's presidential inauguration, though nominally dedicated to the troops, was a gilded $40 million jamboree at which the word Iraq was banished from the Inaugural Address.

    THIS summer in Crawford, the White House went to this playbook once too often. When Mr. Bush's motorcade left a grieving mother in the dust to speed on to a fund-raiser, that was one fat-cat party too far. The strategy of fighting a war without shared national sacrifice has at last backfired, just as the strategy of Swift Boating the war's critics has reached its Waterloo before Patrick Fitzgerald's grand jury in Washington. The 24/7 cable and Web attack dogs can keep on sliming Cindy Sheehan. The president can keep trying to ration the photos of flag-draped caskets. But this White House no longer has any more control over the insurgency at home than it does over the one in Iraq.

  5. #64
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    More reporting from the "liberal" anti-war media???????? This is their take on Pro-Bush/Pro-War Crusaders. Notice how they label them "PATRIOTIC" as oppose to the other Anti-War camp. You can only surmise that if you are Anti-War, you must not be patriotic.

    I'm sure everyone has read Orwell here.




    Patriotic Camp Counters Peace Mom Protest


    By ANGELA K. BROWN
    Updated: 8:51 a.m. ET Aug. 21, 2005

    CRAWFORD, Texas - A patriotic camp with a "God Bless Our President!" banner sprung up downtown Saturday, countering the anti-war demonstration started by a fallen soldier's mother two weeks ago near President Bush's ranch.

    The camp is named "Fort Qualls," in memory of Marine Lance Cpl. Louis Wayne Qualls, 20, who died in Iraq last fall.


    ''If I have to sacrifice my whole family for the sake of our country and world, other countries that want freedom, I'll do that,'' said the soldier's father, Gary Qualls, a friend of the local business owner who started the pro-Bush camp. He said his 16-year-old son now wants to enlist, and he supports that decision.
    Qualls' frustration with the anti-war demonstrators erupted last week when he removed a cross bearing his son's name that was among hundreds the group had put up along the road to Bush's ranch.
    Qualls called the protesters' views disrespectful to soldiers, and said he had to yank out two more crosses after protesters kept replacing them.
    Cindy Sheehan, whose 24-year-old son, Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, died last year in Iraq, started the anti-war demonstration along the roadside on Aug. 6. ''Camp Casey'' has since grown to about 100 core participants, and hundreds more from across the nation have visited.
    Sheehan vowed to remain there until Bush agreed to meet with her or until his monthlong vacation ended, but she flew to Los Angeles last week after her 74-year-old mother had a stroke. Her mother has some paralysis but is in good spirits, and if she improves, Sheehan may return to Texas in a few days, some demonstrators said.
    In her absence, the rest of the group will keep camping out for the unlikely chance to question the president about the war that has claimed the lives of about 1,850 U.S. soldiers.
    Bush has said he sympathizes with Sheehan but won't change his schedule to meet with her. She and other families met with Bush about two months after Casey Sheehan died, before she became a vocal opponent of the war.
    Large counter-protests were held in a ditch near Sheehan's site a week after she arrived, and since then, a few Bush supporters have stood in the sun holding signs for several hours each day.
    Bill Johnson, a local gift shop owner who created ''Fort Qualls,'' said he wanted to offer a larger, more convenient place for Bush supporters to gather.
    He and others at ''Fort Qualls'' have asked for a debate with those at the Crawford Peace House, which is helping Sheehan.
    It's unclear if that will happen. But a member of Gold Star Families for Peace, co-founded by Sheehan and comprised of relatives of fallen soldiers, said her group would not participate.
    ''We're asking for a meeting with the president, period,'' said Michelle DeFord, whose 37-year-old son, Sgt. David W. Johnson, was in the Army National Guard from Oregon when he was killed in Iraq last fall. ''We don't want to debate with people who don't understand our point of view.''
    © 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9029854
    Last edited by RBA; 08-21-2005 at 12:02 PM.

  6. #65
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    The assumption that a person is more patriotic because they are in favor of the Iraq war really pisses me off.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  7. #66
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro
    The assumption that a person is more patriotic because they are in favor of the Iraq war really pisses me off.
    Or, as a related note, that someone is "More Patriotic" because he or she supports the President in whatever decisions are made.

    The love that people have for George W. Bush truly preplexes me...I never saw Democrats going to the wood like this for Clinton.
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  8. #67
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    Or, as a related note, that someone is "More Patriotic" because he or she supports the President in whatever decisions are made.

    The love that people have for George W. Bush truly preplexes me...I never saw Democrats going to the wood like this for Clinton.
    except for Monica.

    Sorry, even I couldn't resist that.
    Last edited by pedro; 08-21-2005 at 06:07 PM.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  9. #68
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    The love that people have for George W. Bush truly preplexes me...I never saw Democrats going to the wood like this for Clinton.
    There is one key reason for this. But if I write it I'll get kicked off the board again.

  10. #69
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    There is one key reason for this. But if I write it I'll get kicked off the board again.
    Thanks for saving me a couple points on my blood pressure FCB. You are a true humanitarian.

  11. #70
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaycint
    Thanks for saving me a couple points on my blood pressure FCB. You are a true humanitarian.
    For someone who claims to be adamantly independent of the Republicans, you sure get riled whenever they're attacked.

  12. #71
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    For someone who claims to be adamantly independent of the Republicans, you sure get riled whenever they're attacked.
    I figured the attack wouldn't have been so much against Repubs as it would have been against white males. We are evil incarnate ya know.

  13. #72
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaycint
    I figured the attack wouldn't have been so much against Repubs as it would have been against white males. We are the evil incarnate ya know.
    No trust me, I would have lumped in ALL Republicans, men, women, black, Asian, white.

  14. #73
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    No trust me, I would have lumped in ALL Republicans, men, women, black, Asian, white.
    Although we rarely ever fall on the same page in regards to issues on this side of the board I just wanna say that I respect the fact that you stand firm in your positions and beliefs. Not a lot of waffling when it comes to FCB.

    For the record I consider myself a Libertarian. I probably lean a little right on economics issues and I am absolutely positive I lean way further to the left than you could ever imagine when it comes to social issues.

    I am no fan of the current administration. Next election, since a Libertarian candidate stand as much chance as an ice cube in hell of getting elected, I will choose the candidate that I feel falls the closest to my views when I cast my vote. If they are a Democrat cool, if they are a Republican cool.

  15. #74
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Speaking of being more patriotic because you support the actions of the President, I heard the end of a conversation today that I found most interesting.

    As everyone knows, the US is prevalent with cars plastered with yellow ribbons and "support our troops" stickers. I don't have one on mine because I don't put any kind of bumper sticker or magnetic sign on my Acura. I just don't.

    This morning I was pulled to church where the topic of the sermon was patriotism for some reason and what this country should mean to Christians. It was the usual Rah-Rah about supporting the boys over there (which I totally agree with) and our government leaders who had the wisdom granted by God to know what they are doing (Bush is a Christian, you know). After about the first five minutes, I started not listening and leafing through the hymnal to entertain me until I could get out of there.

    But, what happened after church was amazing. Two older gentlemen got into an argument in the parking lot about one of them still having a Kerry sticker on his car. The Bush supporter criticized the other guy for not being "patriotic" like the pastor said he should be. It got sort of heated at that point and the Bush guy made a statement I thought was interesting.

    "You know those people over there are evil and not Christians, it's our duty to show them the right way--the way of Christ so they can save themselves from Hell."

    Methinks there may be a lot more to this than I first thought. Not only are we righting terrorism, we are fighting folks who worship different from us. Interesting.
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  16. #75
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Still waiting for some verication for this statement.
    Polls taken after the election by CNN, Newsweek, and CBS all had the same numbers. 70-80% of active military and their families, voted for Bush. My point being if THEY, being the ones put in danger by Bush are supporting him, why should we not support him as well. They know more about what is going on In Iraq than the news media...right?

    All most people know about the war is what they see on TV. If all we saw was the positive stuff, support for the war would be a 65 %-70%.

    Sadly, all we see are the negitive stuff, thus support for the war is at 35%-40%. Most people don't take the time to do a little research on their own, and watch and read different news sources.

    When was the last time you saw a postive story on the nightly news, or New York Times? My point exactly.

    The power of the media is huge. They control what we know and don't know. They control what we see and don't see. They control weather or not it is on the top fold of the newspaper or buried on page 17. That is power. Thank goodness for the Web.

    Ask a soldier, the next time you see him back from Iraq if he thinks the news coverage is fair. Then thank him or her for their sacrifice.

    I travel a lot. I make it a point to thank every military person I see in the airport. If I see them eating before their flight, I pick up their check. Not one has told me, what they are doing is wrong. They are proud, as I am of their noble work.

    Are their some military out there that disagree with this...sure I'd say so, but I have not met them yet. I have spoke to aprox. 125-150 military personal since March of 03 who were going, coming back, or going again to Iraq. They all say the same thing...We are doing good work in Iraq.


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