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Thread: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

  1. #151
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    If guys don't want to pay child support, maybe they shouldn't have sex either.


    (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
    But that's the same argument people make against legalized abortion.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

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  3. #152
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    GAC, how would a woman do that, exactly? Not ever have sex, because she might get pregnant? Because you know as well as I do that abstinence is the only sure way not to get pregnant. Surely you aren't suggesting all women who don't want to get pregnant should never have sex.
    Simply going on medically scientific fact here Rosie. sperm + egg = baby. If one is not present then it is an impossibility. I'm stating if those who are single or married, and don't want to create that child, along with the responsibilty it brings, then they need to take those steps necessary to insure it doesn't happen. Many couples in this country, including my wife and I, have done exactly that. And I don't accept this logic that just because some are not as responsibile as the others we need to provide them with an alternative - abortion. And when conception does occur, the answer is not to discard that baby in a dumpster because we don't want the inconvenience and responsibility. Take that responsibility beforehand.

    I fully understand that the sex act is a sensual and beautiful thing. IMO, that is the way God intended it to be. And I know we will differ on this, but it's sole intent was between a husband and wife and for procreation. The end result is that children (our progeny) are created.

    To many, abortion is the solution to the procreation "problem" while keeping the enjoyment aspect intact while also escaping responsibilty. Its simply like playing Russian roulette - except we point the gun at the innocent child conceived.

    And what I meant by that is I can't see the hypothetically pregnant men in this country standing for someone telling them what they can and can't do in regards to terminating said pregnancy. I think men would want the *choice* ... I never said a word about men being incapable of understanding abortion or feeling pain abortion brings. You somehow infered that from what I wrote.
    That response, about feeling pain, was in direct response to RBA's posting of that article on not feeling pain, not you Rosie. Where did I infer in my response to you otherwise?

    So, if me thinking men would want the choice is sexist ... well, guess I'm sexist then.
    Did I say anywhere that it was sexist?
    Last edited by GAC; 08-25-2005 at 08:13 AM.
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  4. #153
    MarsArmyGirl RosieRed's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    ^ GAC, I wasn't replying to you when I wrote those second and third items you quoted.

    Just to clarify.

  5. #154
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Rosie's conjecture (that if the situations were reversed, men would have choice available to them) is at least founded on the bedrock that men call the shots, say what's fair, etc.
    And that you agree with her, which is the only standard something has to pass.
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  6. #155
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    And that you agree with her, which is the only standard something has to pass.
    Well, yeah. I hope I'd defend a position I agree with.

  7. #156
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Well, yeah. I hope I'd defend a position I agree with.
    Don't be so confused. The idea was that agreeing with you is the only standard of truth you recognize. The possibility that you may have chosen a bogus position never seems to enter your mind.
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  8. #157
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Don't be so confused. The idea was that agreeing with you is the only standard of truth you recognize. The possibility that you may have chosen a bogus position never seems to enter your mind.
    Shouldn't that make you feel better, that I'm so self-deluded?

  9. #158
    MarsArmyGirl RosieRed's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Don't be so confused. The idea was that agreeing with you is the only standard of truth you recognize. The possibility that you may have chosen a bogus position never seems to enter your mind.
    Is saying that "men call the shots, say what's fair, etc." a bogus position?

  10. #159
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Because, like sex, driving in a car might kill someone just like sex might get someone pregnant, maybe we should abstain from driving?

    Maybe we should not fight clearly non-defensive wars because innocent children will be killed, and take responsibility for our actions? Or are their lives okay to take, to sacrifice, even though they have no choice either? You can't play God and at the same time fear it.

    If God is so almighty powerful, don't you think he/she/it could've simply created a situation in the human body that made it fatal for the mother if she tried to abort? If zero tolerance of abortion were that important to God? I think that would be pretty easy considering all the other miracles and incredible complexities and balances of nature.

    I don't believe in late or mid-term abortions, or even anything over a month ideally, and hope that we get there some day soon as a minimum - abortion is not a good thing and is not something even pro-lifers advocate or champion.

    God gave us free will, to choose when to give and take life from the womb, God gave us the ability to use contraceptives, and left it up to US, if you believe in a God.

    Whatever choice a mother makes with what is inside her body is her's and her's alone.

    Abortion is a sad reality of life, and a necessary one for now if we don't want to completely choke ourselves to death with overpopulation and poverty. Just as sad and wrong as war, disease, and car accidents.

    You can keep asking people to not have sex and raise criminals and fall into poverty, or deal with the problem realistically and hope that education and science, like so many other things, creates a better world where some day it is hardly, if ever, necessary.

    I think it's about being part of the solution and not the problem - if God can forgive you for supporting wars via tax dollars and moral support that kill innocent children and civilians, then opposing abortion for purely Biblical reasons is futile and blatantly hypocritical. Life is precious in it's entirety, not one more than another - and people who are killed by errant bombs are no more given a choice than a fertile egg that's aborted or miscarried.

    This is not aimed at anyone in particular - but the general consensus of pro-lifers, it's just how I feel and know those people mean well, but that doesn't excuse them from criticism. I would much rather people do constructive things to fix the problem, and accept that people aren't going to ever follow your strict Biblical ways, than condemn and doom people to hell and judge them. Do something that, God forbid it involves scientific methods or compromising for the good of the whole, works toward eliminating the need for this procedure. It's easy to condemn and point fingers, anyone can do that.

  11. #160
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    ^ GAC, I wasn't replying to you when I wrote those second and third items you quoted.

    Just to clarify.
    np Rosie - I still luv ya!

    But you threw this old man for a loop, because I was going back and re-reading what I posted - "did I really say that?"

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  12. #161
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    If guys don't want to pay child support, maybe they shouldn't have sex either.


    (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
    I agree wholeheartedly. As a wise man once told me - alot of times, men think with the wrong head.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  13. #162
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    Is saying that "men call the shots, say what's fair, etc." a bogus position?
    I'd like to see the women calling the shots in this instance - as far as taking the chance of conceiving a baby is concerned. I'm not trying to put the burden on the woman, because we all know the intentions of alot of men out there.

    I'm simply implying to the women - TAKE CHARGE! Especially if the chances are good that guy is irresponsible or not gonna take the responsibility if a child is conceived. Believe me, in that sense, I am very sympathetic to the woman's plight in that situation.

    I'm alot older now, and when I look at this younger generation, even when compared to my generation of the 60's which lived by the mantra of "love the one you're with", I see a far greater attitude of irresponsibility and accountability when it comes to the arena of sexual activity. And we are paying the cost.

    I look at how sex is marketed in just about everything we see. It seems everything centers around it. And the pressures seem to be harder on this generation then previous IMO.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  14. #163
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Shouldn't that make you feel better, that I'm so self-deluded?
    No, and I'm sorry for the potshot. The whole issue about whether or not my "polling" of RZ was scientific just seems a bit misplaced considering the nature of debates on this board. However, is it fair to say, that of the men who post in these types of threads, that there are a predominance of posters supporting "choice" and only a few "lifers" like myself defending the other side, as a general rule? That is all I was saying.
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  15. #164
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    Is saying that "men call the shots, say what's fair, etc." a bogus position?
    I wasn't really referring to this specific issue with FCB, but to give you an answer, that would depend on the issue and the environment one finds themselves in. But that is a very, very broad generalization. I wouldn't sell women that short in their influence in our culture. While women are by no means "running the show" from a big picture perspective, there has been substantial progress in that area in just my lifetime.

    For example, there is a woman "calling the shots" at UC right now
    Last edited by traderumor; 08-25-2005 at 11:12 AM.
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