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Thread: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

  1. #16
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I think women are more important than fetuses--and I'm not budging.

    When does life begin? When does the fetus stop being a glob of cells and become a living entity, with rights?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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  3. #17
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    And here we go!
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  4. #18
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    And here we go!

    Isn't that the only question that matters here?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  5. #19
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I think women are more important than fetuses--and I'm not budging.
    You don't have to. In fact, I somewhat agree with you.

    If it came down to the life of a woman or the fetus ... I'd save the woman. She has established relationships, is someones wife, mother, sister, daughter, etc. IMO, the women is more important than the fetus in that case.

    I don't know how to say it so that it doesn't sound condescending, but it does make me sad that all life, or what will become life, or what will possibly become life at some point - isn't held in higher esteem.

  6. #20
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    Isn't that the only question that matters here?
    No, no one has yet addressed my question, which seems much more specifically related to this matter: Where do you draw the line between the reckless endangerment of a fetus, and a mother-to-be simply going on about her life, albeit without much thought for her actions?

    Clump of cells v. human life isn't the issue here...how much responsibility a potential mother has to the well-being of her unborn child IS. Introducing the "clump of cells" argument only serves to cloud the true issue.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  7. #21
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    I don't know how to say it so that it doesn't sound condescending, but it does make me sad that all life, or what will become life, or what will possibly become life at some point - isn't held in higher esteem.
    I don't really see anyone holding anyone's life in lower esteem--I see practical issues arising out of a very difficult question.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    When does life begin? When does the fetus stop being a glob of cells and become a living entity, with rights?
    When the child can survive independent of the mother's womb. Before then it's a fetus.

    But registerthis is right, this issue of a mother's culpability is different--I led the discussion astray, unintentionally, but I did.
    Last edited by Falls City Beer; 08-19-2005 at 07:18 PM.

  9. #23
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    Obfuscate much?

    She wasn't charged with drug use/possession, she was charged with reckless endangerment.

    I think you misunderstood the article, entirely.
    Not to obturate the intimation you are injuncting, but I did register the article. I simply have a different elucidation apropos the idea of exculpating this woman, which I think is convivial to the extent of merriment.

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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baumer
    Not to obturate the intimation you are injuncting, but I did register the article. I simply have a different elucidation apropos the idea of exculpating this woman, which I think is convivial to the extent of merriment.
    Now let's try the same sentence with a Germanic, as opposed to a Latinate, lexicon:

    I don't want to call your words crap, but I got the point. I think the woman is a b***** and drinks and makes lusty too much.

  11. #25
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    When the child can survive independent of the mother's womb. Before then it's a fetus.

    Well, the evolution thread has run its course several times, and still keeps ticking. I'd really be interested in the RedsZoners' take on this question, although I know it's incendiary.

    I'm not looking for a referendum on abortion, but the question of where does life begin is one that has been debated since the dawn of time, and could make for an interesting discussion, if everyone plays nice.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    But, where do you draw the line between "reckless" behavior and "acceptable" behavior for the woman.

    Further, there is no way of knowing (often) the results of prenatal behavior on any child that is born. Thus, there would be an issue of selective prosecution to consider: do we punish strictly any woman who is found to be doing anything that might be deterimental to her baby's health in the future, or only women who partake in such behavior AND find later that it has a detrimental impact on individuals? Are we going to ticket all speeders or just the ones who cause an accident as a result of their speeding?

    What about civil claims? Will a child be able to sue it's mother for poor decisions made while it was still a fetus?

    Will we end up with women, paralyzed by the fear of lawsuits and prosecution at a later date, simply sitting at home on the couch while pregnant because they are fearful of what might occur to their fetus if they leave the house?

    Like I said...slippery slopes are problematic...
    First off CE, I wanted to mention that I've found your opinions very informative and well considered on numerous subjects. I've really enjoyed reading your recent posts (and learning from them as well). I'm not sure this particular issue is as slippery a slope as you perceive though. There's a tremendous difference between abusing an illegal substance, and not taking one's prenatal vitamins, for instance. One thing is clearly against the laws of the United States, physically detrimental, and has scientifically been documented to seriously harm developing fetuses, whereas the other would likely have pretty minimal impact in my opinion.

    I think there should be some consideration given to the amount of potential harm the action could cause. Again, there is a tremendous difference between throwing down Jack Daniels vs not exercising enough. I think, in lawsuits like this, there should be a reasonableness type assumption - as in "would a reasonable person consider this relatively safe behavior during a pregnancy?" As for childen suing their parents, I would think by the time they could intellectually realize their parent was doing something detrimental during pregnancy, the statute of limitations for a civil suit would have expired.

    I do completely agree with you that it's nearly impossible to effectively quantify how something affects a fetus's development, unless it's something knowingly harmful (drinking excessively, drug abuse, etc). For instance, how does vegetarianism affect a developing fetus? Is that potentially harmful? A glass of wine once per month? How do supplements affect a developing fetus? All of these are very intriguing questions.

    I do agree, however, with the basis of this lawsuit in the sense that the woman knowingly engaged in what I consider reckless and derelict behavior during a pregnancy. It has been shown in numerous studies how dangerous drug use is during pregnancy, and it's common knowledge that pregnant women should abstain from drinking and drug usage. While I agree that you can't litigate based on "slippery slope" issues such as caffeine usage, or diet, or other factors that might negatively affect a pregnancy, I think this was pretty flagrant behavior on her part.

    JMO. Please keep posting on these topics - I'm really enjoying reading your perspective.

  13. #27
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    Well, the evolution thread has run its course several times, and still keeps ticking. I'd really be interested in the RedsZoners' take on this question, although I know it's incendiary.

    I'm not looking for a referendum on abortion, but the question of where does life begin is one that has been debated since the dawn of time, and could make for an interesting discussion, if everyone plays nice.
    I believe that life begins at conception. If we classify the tiniest of bacteria and amoeba as life forms, then so too must you classify as the fertilized zygote a lifeform. The zygote contains all 46 human chromosomes that a person will carry for the remainder of their life. At seven weeks, the heart is pumping blood through the tiny fetus. This is the fetuses blood, not the blood of the mother. Sure, the fetus can't yet survive outside the womb, but that shouldn't make it any less a classification for it being a living being.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan
    I believe that life begins at conception. If we classify the tiniest of bacteria and amoeba as life forms, then so too must you classify as the fertilized zygote a lifeform. The zygote contains all 46 human chromosomes that a person will carry for the remainder of their life. At seven weeks, the heart is pumping blood through the tiny fetus. This is the fetuses blood, not the blood of the mother. Sure, the fetus can't yet survive outside the womb, but that shouldn't make it any less a classification for it being a living being.
    A bacterium is a self-sustaining organism; an embryo dies outside of the mother.

  15. #29
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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    A bacterium is a self-sustaining organism; an embryo dies outside of the mother.
    mold is a lifeform, but it needs moisture to survive.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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    Re: ACLU Defending Woman Accused Of Using Drugs While Pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan
    mold is a lifeform, but it needs moisture to survive.
    Yeah, and you and I need oxygen. What's your point? We, like mold and bacteria, can move around to obtain what we need. An embryo is unsustainable and is wholly dependent on the body of a woman.


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