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Thread: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

  1. #151
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I have not agreed with everything that Bush has done in his handling of this war. This adminstration has made plenty of blunders. But then, I don't know of many previous administrations who were able to plan/chart out the perfect war before implementing it, and not make mistakes and hit brickwalls.
    This war has been the furthest thing from perfect you could get--it has been an abysmal failire on every single front. The insurgency is gaining momentum (over 700--700!--were killed yesterday in a stampede to get away from a suicide bomber), there is virtually no security, tribal factions are fighting each other, and basic services like elctricity and water have yet to be regularly established.

    This isn't a simple blunder, it's a gross miscalculation that has cost thousands of lives.

    But the one thing I have admired in Bush is that he is not driven by polling numbers and stays the course when he believes firmly in what he is doing. Even when others believe it is wrong.
    That's a very admirable trait to have--refuse to admit when you've underestimated and miscalculated the plan for a war. Does "staying the course" also mean apologizing for being so grossly wrong on WMDs? Does "staying the course" mean refusing to admit that the power of the insurgency was wildly unerestimated? Does "staying the course" mean refusing to comprehend when to cut our losses and allow Iraq to fix the problem themselves?

    Bush operates seemingly out of a soundproof chamber, refusing to hear the truth about the war he started, and blindly repeating his administration's lines--a free Iraq, stay the course, stop the terrorists, etc. I don't believe he even operates in reality.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Excellent synopsis.

    The Dems made a politically suicidal decision in each of the past two national elections (2002 and 2004) to walk a "nuanced" line on Iraq. They were for and against it, at least that's the way the party leadership played it. I think a lot of the base was nervous about cutting off the head so that the body could thrive, but Dean's managed to put the Republicans on their heels for the first time since 1996.
    Whats most galling is the punidocracy's habit of hammering the Democrats for not defining themselves or taking a strong stand and then slamming them when someone actually does. The NYT's Nicholas Kristoff is especially good at this. Kristoff is one of the "even-the-Democrat" school of editorial writing. Republicans can point to him and say "even the Democrat Nicholas Kristoff supports private accounts" or some such garbage. Get out of my party, Nick!
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  4. #153
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Venezuala to offer cheap gas

    Venezuela's CITGO to Provide Cheap Gas for U.S. Hospitals, Nursing Homes and Schools

    Monday, Aug 29, 2005

    By: Cleto Sojo - VenezuelAnalysis.com

    Caracas, Venezuela. August 28, 2005 (VenezuelAnalysis.com).- Rafael Ramirez, president of Venezuela's oil company PDVSA, offered some details of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's offer to provide cheaper gasoline and heating oil to U.S. poor communities.

    Speaking shortly after a press conference held by President Chavez and U.S. Reverend Jesse Jackson, Ramirez said that CITGO Petroleum Corp., the wholly owned subsidiary of PDVSA, is currently refining up to 664.000 barrels of oil through the refineries it owns and operates in the United States.

    Venezuela is the world's fifth largest oil exporter and the fourth largest supplier of oil to the United States. Venezuelan oil accounted for 12% of U.S. oil imports.

    Ramirez said that under the Venezuelan government plan, CITGO will set aside up to 10% of its refined oil products to be sold directly to organized poor communities, and institutions in the U.S. without intermediaries.

    The plan calls for the sale of heating oil and gasoline to hospitals, nursing homes, schools and organized poor communities in U.S. soil, according to Ramirez.

    Other Venezuelan government officials, who asked not to be named, said that Venezuela will not lose any money with this program because the idea is to "cut the middle-man", the intermediaries.

    Ramirez said the beneficiaries will see a price reduction of about 30%.

    Ramirez, who is also Venezuela's Minister of Oil and Energy, denied that Reverend Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/PUSH Coalition would be the recipient of the cheaper oil.

    The Minister said Reverend Jackson's organization could help Venezuela identify those who are in need, but that they will not be the recipients of the products.

    Ramirez was confident the program will be implemented before the U.S. winter begins.

    CITGO Petroleum Corp. owns and operates eight refineries in the United States.

    It is unclear how the CITGO gas will reach the consumers, as CITGO does not own any of the 14.000 CITGO-branded gas stations operating in U.S. territory through franchising.

    "Impact on seven to eight million persons"

    “There is a lot of poverty in the U.S. and I don’t believe that reflects the American Way of Life. Many people die of cold in the winter. Many die of heat in the summer,” said Chavez on Sunday during his weekly TV show, explaining why Venezuela was interested in providing discounted heating oil to the U.S. poor.

    “We could have an impact on seven to eight million persons,” Chavez added.

    Venezuela’s ambassador to the U.S. Bernardo Alvarez, had told Chavez that the embassy in Washington DC has already received over 140 requests about the plan, even though it has not been formally announced yet.

    Venezuela also plans to provide free surgery for certain eye conditions for U.S. poor.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  5. #154
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Thank you, Venezuela.

    I wonder what Robertson has to say about this?
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  6. #155
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    Venezuala to offer cheap gas

    Venezuela's CITGO to Provide Cheap Gas for U.S. Hospitals, Nursing Homes and Schools

    Monday, Aug 29, 2005

    By: Cleto Sojo - VenezuelAnalysis.com

    Caracas, Venezuela. August 28, 2005 (VenezuelAnalysis.com).- Rafael Ramirez, president of Venezuela's oil company PDVSA,
    This guy?


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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Personally, I respect a man who admits his mistakes and fixes them far more than a man who sticks to his guns even when he is wrong.

  8. #157
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    This war has been the furthest thing from perfect you could get--it has been an abysmal failire on every single front. The insurgency is gaining momentum (over 700--700!--were killed yesterday in a stampede to get away from a suicide bomber), there is virtually no security, tribal factions are fighting each other, and basic services like elctricity and water have yet to be regularly established.
    That's funny. I follow that progress pretty avidly, and have been reading different reports as far as to the progress and restoration of services and other institutions in Iraq. You want everyone to believe that everything going on in Iraq is a total disaster and waste. Just one huge mistake.

    And are your biases against this war influencing that? To you, nothing positive is happening in Iraq at all. It's worse then when Saddam was in power. We're like a bunch of chickens running around over there with our heads cut off. And I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

    I've read GAO reports that show we are lagging in some areas, and making progress in others.

    Nobody, who supports this war denies the harsdship, trials, and "hard road" the Iraqi's face to rebuilding this nation. We don't deny the insurgencies impact - their continued attempts to thwart that reconstruction - nor many of the hurdles faced daily (such as the restoration of basic services, etc).

    We do not paint a "rosey" picture, or try to gloss anything over.

    But I've heard it so much on here over the last year or so, by those who oppose this war, that nothing positive is being accomplished at all in Iraq and to put these people on a better path. And that is totally wrong and misleading.

    Have security issues slowed that reconstruction in certain sectors of Iraq? Yes it has. But overall, it is progressing.

    And by the way - many, many other nations/outside sources are stepping up and investing and involved in the reconstruction process.

    Electrical power generation and distribution, curtailed due to combat operations and sabotage, has been restored to above prewar levels. German firm Elbe Maschinenbau has signed an agreement to build three new power plants in Iraq, and three new ones have already been completed in the Anbar region. The PCO has crossed the halfway completion mark of planned infrastructure projects assigned to it by the U.S. Department of State in Iraq. More than 1600 of the planned 3200 projects—such as power generation and distribution, water treatment, schools, oil production and courthouses (see photo) ―have been certified as successfully completed by the US Army Corps of Engineers. Finished structures are subsequently consigned to the appropriate Iraq ministry.

    The Al Sharquat Bridge, which spans the Tigris River, is one of eight major projects planned under Grant Agreements with the Ministry of Construction and Housing. The existing pontoon bridge will be replaced with a modern concrete bridge, lighting systems will be installed, and asphalt approach roads will be constructed. The Al Sharquat Bridge Project is expected to generate more than 500 jobs during peak construction and employ 300 Iraqis in stable jobs during the regular construction period

    Under the reconstruction of Iraq, the Ministry of Health now has a $1 billion (US Dollars) budget, about $40 per Iraqi citizen. By mid-2004 all 240 of Iraq's hospitals were up and running. Salaries for doctors and nurses have been greatly increased, and maintenance is being performed on some health care facilities.

    The first modern landfill in Iraqi history is currently being developed in southwest Baghdad, with the capacity to handle 2,230 cubic meters of waste per day. USAID is helping to build a second landfill north of Baghdad, which will handle 3,000 cubic yards (2,300 m³) of waste per day. Both landfills will be built to international environmental standards.

    Water Project on schedule in Southern Iraq...http://www.grd.usace.army.mil/news/r...con060905.html

    Out of the 97 railway stations being renovated by the Facilities & Transportation (F&T) Sector of the Project & Contracting Office (PCO), only 28 remain to be finished, remarkable progress since the $42 million PCO railroad program first ramped up in October 2004.

    Almost all schools have reopened -- including all 22 universities. 800 school rennovations have been on-going (83% complete).

    Iraqis now enjoy freedom of speech, with the one stipulation that there be no direct attempt to incite insurrection against the new government. This freedom is currently being exercised by the several hundred new newspapers that have sprung up since the fall of Saddam in April, 2002. Television stations, both satellite (Al Fayhaa, etc.) and terrestrial (Al Sharqiya, Alhurra, etc.), and radio stations (Radio Dijla, etc.) broadcast freely, and no longer have their content dictated by the government.

    The 2003 war severely disrupted telecommunications throughout Iraq, including international connections. USAID is overseeing the repair of switching capability and the construction of mobile and satellite communications facilities.

    Many Iraqis were left jobless by the collapse of the old government and by the war. An American public works program was created to provide new jobs, and there are projects to attract foreign investment and to encourage local business development. According to the Gulf Daily News, the Iraq Project and Contracting Office employed 80,000 Iraqis each day in the early weeks of August 2004. 100 job sites have opened across Iraq, and 900 more are expected to open in late 2004.

    Iraq's bond market opened in mid-June, 2004. Interest rates are being set by the free market, as opposed to government control, for the first time. The Iraq Stock Exchange also opened in June, and 500 million shares were traded on the first day, which is more shares than the previous stock exchange, the Baghdad Stock Market, had ever traded. As of August, 2004, it has 27 listed companies, with about 100 more due to go public through September and October.

    I could sight many more on Iraqi reconstruction (good and bad); but don't want to waste RZ band width.

    Iraq Investment and Reconstruction Task Force

    http://www.export.gov/iraq/

    You can get weekly updates on the recontruction progress in Iraq http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/porta...=1&pDetid=2401

    Go there and scan around some of the various sections that chart/track what is being done from village to village, and on the local levels. Pretty amazing stuff if you ask me.

    Trying to tell everyone that it's nothing but a mistake and chaotic mess over there is, with nothing being accomplished is, IMO, not being totally honest with the situation over there.

    This isn't a simple blunder, it's a gross miscalculation that has cost thousands of lives.


    Bush operates seemingly out of a soundproof chamber, refusing to hear the truth about the war he started, and blindly repeating his administration's lines--a free Iraq, stay the course, stop the terrorists, etc. I don't believe he even operates in reality.
    Many say/beleive the same thing (about operating in reality) when it comes to those who want to "cut and run" and leave this nation to possible civl war, while further damaging our reputation around the world. And yes, whether you want to beleive it or not - it would be damaged further.

    You talk of the thousands who have already died. But you'd have no problem with the tens of thousands who would probably die, and the civil war that would probably errupt, if we "cut and run".
    Last edited by GAC; 09-01-2005 at 12:43 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Many say/beleive the same thing (about operating in reality) when it comes to those who want to "cut and run" and leave this nation to possible civl war, while further damaging our reputation around the world. And yes, whether you want to beleive it or not - it would be damaged further.
    Quite a pickle: a damaged reputation or a very damaged reputation. But at least there are bond traders in Bagdhad.

    And according to the government's very own websites everything is coming along nicely.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  10. #159
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    Quite a pickle: a damaged reputation or a very damaged reputation.
    That's right. It would far worse if we cut and run. And like I stated - you wouldn't seem to care about the greater loss of life once it did. Or the possible strenghtening/emboldening of terrorism in the Middle East.

    None of the "externals" should be weighed or considered - just get the heck out!

    And according to the government's very own websites everything is coming along nicely.
    It's obvious that you didn't want to take the time to browse those sites and see what is going on. Because if you had, then you'd have seen that they are not glossing over anything, or saying "everything is coming along nicely." They acknowledge and show those areas of concern, and where they are lagging behind due to the insurgency, along with what progresses are made.

    I posted the inserts I did above, showing numerous positives, and progress being made - along with readily acknowledging the negatives, the setbacks, the hardships - you see, that 's called objectivity (looking at the whole scenario) - to counter those who oppose this war's position that it nothing but a nightmare over there - nothing good is happening - it's a lost cause - cut and run.

    Here's one that shows the progress that Bechtel, contracted by the U.S. government, has made. Pretty thorough....http://www.bechtel.com/iraq.htm

    Since Bechtel entered Iraq in late April 2003, we have:

    * restored the Port of Umm Qasr, enabling its opening to commercial and humanitarian shipping;
    * completed repairs to Baghdad and Basrah International Airports, enabling them to receive commercial flights;
    * reopened three major bridges (Khazir, Al Mat, and Tikrit) to two-way traffic;
    * increased by more than 50 percent the output from one of Baghdad's major power plants;
    * restored water treatment facilities serving 40,000 residents
    * completed work on the Sweet Water Canal, more than doubling the drinking water supply available to residents of Basrah; and
    * completed restoration of Baghdad's landline telecommunications system, enabling the Iraqi Telephone & Post Company to restore service to more than 250,000 subscribers; and
    * repaired more than 1,200 schools serving more than a million students.

    All of these achievements have been made despite the continual challenges and security situation.

    That is just one of the thousands of contractors, both foreign and domestic, that are working there.

    But I'm sure you'll find some why to discredit and disavow that too.

    No one disavows, or looks the other way, at the troubles/complications/set backs in the Sunni triangle and around Baghdad. But what about the majority of Iraq? The insurgency has weakened, and is not as effective.
    Last edited by GAC; 09-01-2005 at 06:30 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Oh yeah, this thread....

    It's obvious that you didn't want to take the time to browse those sites and see what is going on. Because if you had, then you'd have seen that they are not glossing over anything, or saying "everything is coming along nicely." They acknowledge and show those areas of concern, and where they are lagging behind due to the insurgency, along with what progresses are made.
    What do you want me to say, "Hurray, we've rebuilt some of the stuff we bombed -- in the parts of the country we actually control"? Its spin, GAC, pure and simple.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  12. #161
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    What do you want me to say, "Hurray, we've rebuilt some of the stuff we bombed -- in the parts of the country we actually control"? Its spin, GAC, pure and simple.
    You make it sound like we just haphazardously went into this country and were blowing the hell out of anything we came across, with no regards for life or property. Like when Sherman made his march to Atlanta. Sorry - it just didn't happen that way.

    Most reports that I have read, including the GAO and others, have shown it to be the insurgency doing the majority of the destruction, killing the innocent, terrorizing the populace, and trying to hinder those efforts.

    Around Baghdad and the Sunni Triangle, where the resistance had been the stiffest? Yes. I'd hope you could understand our military's aversion to being shot at and having suicide bombers targeting them, and therefore shooting back and taking offensive actions by going into some of those towns that were bases of operation.

    Obviously you don't.

    And the recontruction is not solely about rebuilding from the fall-out of the invasion; but also involves heavy investment in creating and restoring those institutions, systems, and basic services that were either none existent or were allowed to deteriorate under the Saddam regime in those Kurd and Shi ite regions (a vast majority of the country from a geographical standpoint), that he and his sons so readily ignored and oppressed for decades. Alot is going on in those villages and towns to rebuild the roads, install sewage systems, water treatment facilities, build schools, investment in technology for the local councils/government -yadda yadda yadda

    And they are providing jobs by hiring Iraqi's to do the work too.

    As of March 2005, the United States, Iraq, and international donors had
    pledged or made available more than $60 billion for security, governance,
    and reconstruction efforts in Iraq.

    No one, including myself, has denied the hardship and setbacks that have occured in that reconstruction due to the insurgencie's efforts to thwart that.

    Yet you, and others, seem to want to deny that any progress is being made at all - and IMO, that is spin.
    Last edited by GAC; 09-02-2005 at 06:11 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  13. #162
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    Re: Robertson endorses assassinating Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    That's funny. I follow that progress pretty avidly, and have been reading different reports as far as to the progress and restoration of services and other institutions in Iraq. You want everyone to believe that everything going on in Iraq is a total disaster and waste. Just one huge mistake....

    You talk of the thousands who have already died. But you'd have no problem with the tens of thousands who would probably die, and the civil war that would probably errupt, if we "cut and run".
    All I'm going to say, Greg, is that for the past two years we have been told by Bush that our "Mission was accomplished", that the "insurgency is in its death throes", that "we'll be welcomed as liberators". And you know what? None of it is true. NONE of it. This administration lies on a daily basis, doing everything they can to positively spin what has become an extremely damaging situation for them. I do take solace in the fact that somewhere near 40% of people polled now approve of Bush's handling of the war. People seem to be getting the message--that we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into and, clearly, have no strategy to get out.

    As far as your last comment, it's ridiculous even on face value. My PROBLEM is that this war was fought to begin with, for reasons I have clearly stated before. And meanwhile we're fighting this ridiculous war, we have an American city in utter turmoil that our government can't seem to help.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.


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