Sure, just be all sensible like that.Originally Posted by Red Heeler
Sure, just be all sensible like that.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Actually I was quite serious.Knowing Chip - I think he was trying to be somewhat sacastic and humorous. Don't take it so hard.
Michawl, you raise a good point. However, if government does not allow marriages, I'm sure you will see states allow civil unions. A lot of people are already on record as saying they wouldn't allow gay marriages but would allow civil unions between homosexuals. Or, I'm sure if you wanted to get married, you could find some church that would allow you and your partner to get married. Or some minister who got his certificate from a Cracker Jack box. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to start being religious and attend church. How many people have been married in a church and then never attend church again?
Hmmm...What if my morality says it's ok to kill people?
Let's see here. Killing is a non-consensual act, marriage is wholly consensual.
Yep, apples and oranges.
Legal ethics is virtually always centered around one question: does it harm? If it does no harm to one's person, property, etc, or doesn't lead to harm, then chances are it is or should be legal.Hmmm...
Let's see here. Killing is a non-consensual act, marriage is wholly consensual.
Yep, apples and oranges.
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
Unless the one you're killing happens to be growing and developing in a womb, then it doesn't matter. So much for consistency in "legal ethics."Hmmm...
Let's see here. Killing is a non-consensual act, marriage is wholly consensual.
Yep, apples and oranges.
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
The only way one can arrive at the conclusion that homosexuals should be a sanctioned legal entity with all the rights and priveleges of a heterosexual couple, if they go the "legal ethics" route, is to determine that there is no harm, no foul in homosexuality in the first place. That is untrue, and I've presented my arguments several times as to why that is, and they are a little more than "the Bible tells me so." Try to dress it up as "consexual sex between two adults" carried into "a loving relationship," but men and women were not made to engage in sexual acts with the same sex. Therefore, any romantic love that springs from that is invalid as well. Of course, the deeper truth is that it is simply erotic love, but then the basis that leads to me that conclusion is not accepted by the very folks who are standing by the sideline shrugging their shoulders like spineless jellyfish wanting an everything goes society with no moral backbone whatsoever. Well, except, don't kill, well no that's not even totally off-limits.
Hey, only four more days, might as well go out with a bang.
Last edited by traderumor; 09-11-2005 at 10:25 PM.
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
Do we really have to tolerate another lame attempt at catching people in "hypocrisy?" A fetus isn't a person. Plus more harm is committed by abridging a woman's freedom of choice than in preserving potential and contingent tissue inside said woman.
And here I thought we might get through a thread without abortion cropping up.
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
How on earth could you possible know this, TR?
That's incredible.
And spineless jellyfish? No moral backbone whatsoever, just because I don't agree with your viewpoint?
You've outdone yourself this time.
We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut
The thing that's going to win the day for gay marriage isn't going to be any politician's decision; it's going to spring from the almighty dollar--the marriage industry's (hello, conservative small business owners, hello) clamoring for this legislation. Which is fine. Sometimes the private sector has good built into its design.
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
You could be right, here, actually. Has nothing to do with gay marriage, but it is an interesting point.Unless the one you're killing happens to be growing and developing in a womb, then it doesn't matter. So much for consistency in "legal ethics."
I was wondering, though. If my pregnant wife tripped and fell down the stairs, killing her unborn human being, should she be brought up on charges of involuntary manslaughter?
After all, she did actually kill a human being, and in the moral universe you are trying to present, it really isn't any different than me accidentally running over a 5 year old standing at a bus stop.
Last edited by Dom Heffner; 09-12-2005 at 12:31 AM.
Homosexual people exist. They are citizens of this country and deserve the same rights and protections as the rest of us. Wishing them away just isn't going to make it so, traderumor.
"Whatever you choose, however many roads you travel, I hope that you choose not to be a lady. I hope you will find some way to break the rules and make a little trouble out there. And I also hope that you will choose to make some of that trouble on behalf of women." - Nora Ephron
No one is "wishing" them away TC. I happen to work with two men who are in upper management here at Honda who are gay. I treat them with nothing but respect, and get along admirably with both. I don't look down upon them as if to say...."Ewwww, you're a homosexual, a despicable human being, and I want nothing to do with you." I don't look at them, or treat them, any differently then I would anyone else.
In fact, the evangelicals in my department (whom I am very close with) treat these two men with alot more dignity and respect then the unbelievers in our department do. I wish some could be sitting in the breakroom or cafeteria when these two men's names are mentioned or they enter the room. The whispering, the dereogatory and demeaning remarks - it's not pretty, and I don't participate, nor condone it.
No evangelical, who is true to their faith and allegiance, would condone any type of violence toward another human being out of malice and hatred - including those who are gay. And those who oppose gay marriage should not be seen that way.
I can differ and disagree, concerning the lifestyle, and not be what some like to throw around - a homophobe (whatever that is).
Yes - homosexuals exist. They have always existed. It is not homosexuality that is being outlawed. As it was stated earlier - it is the institution of marriage that is being defined and protected. Just because something exists, does not necessarily mean it is right or acceptable (and I'm not simply looking at it from a personal, individual level, but societal). There are an awful lot of people witin society, that have no relgious following/influences, who oppose the homosexual lifestyle. And no, I don't think they are ignorant or stupid either.
What someone wants to do in their private lives, and in the privacy of their own home, is their business. And if the private sector/industry wishes to extend benefits, etc. to homosexual couples, then that is their right, and I don't oppose that one bit. And if the people of a state want to sanction and legalize gay marriage, even though I pesonally oppose it, then let the people decide that- not some activist judicary, who uses their personal biases/ideology to interpret the Constitution as they see it, and IMO, overstep their authority.
Even as a Christian I am told to respect the law and governing authorities - even though I may not agree with that law, due to it's violation of Biblical/Christian principles. Above all, there must be order.
Last edited by GAC; 09-12-2005 at 06:34 AM.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Yes, there is a difference. A HUGE difference - between accidental and premeditation.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Define "person"? And WHO assigns it that definition? When I asked you and others this question on the other thread, it was avoided.
Medical science doesn't agree with you when tracking fetal development. But then, what does medical science know when it comes to ideological wranglings.
And if you want to talk (again) about "viablilty" - Capable of living, developing, or germinating under favorable conditions; capable of living outside the uterus - then an infant newly born is not viable. Even by the broad definition given by the Supreme Court.
How about a premature baby in an incubator, born at 5-6 months? Not a person, according to your definition? Why is it that it's not viable while still in that womb, yet minutes later, when it passes from that womb, it's now viable? That newly born infant can no more sustain itself outside the womb then inside it.
And what about women who have C-sections? Funny - When a cesarean is necessary, it can be a life saving technique for both mother and infant. But acording to you, that baby wasn't a "person".
How about a baby born with a disability, such as Downs Syndrome? Viable?
Our is it an issue of life that has rights?
It's funny how that term equal protection is used and manipulated.
Last edited by GAC; 09-12-2005 at 06:52 AM.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Hubba (10-01-2013)
Baloney! (and you know it!)
It's a civil rights issue no different than a woman's right to vote or segregation. We just can't seem to learn from our own history in this country.
"Whatever you choose, however many roads you travel, I hope that you choose not to be a lady. I hope you will find some way to break the rules and make a little trouble out there. And I also hope that you will choose to make some of that trouble on behalf of women." - Nora Ephron
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