Bengals v. Vikings

[Steve4192]

To be fair, Betterread wrote that in September, when Culpepper's implosion and Carson's ascension to stardom could have both been the product of a small sample size. Culpepper had a ton of performance data that would support the belief that his slow start was an anomoly, and Carson's performance was WAY beyond anyones wildest expectations. You must have been seriously PO'd at Betterread to dredge up an outdated six-month old post to try and make him look foolish.

[Sea Ray]

To be fair, Betterread wrote that in September, when Culpepper's implosion and Carson's ascension to stardom could have both been the product of a small sample size. Culpepper had a ton of performance data that would support the belief that his slow start was an anomoly, and Carson's performance was WAY beyond anyones wildest expectations. You must have been seriously PO'd at Betterread to dredge up an outdated six-month old post to try and make him look foolish.

Hindsight is the clearest, most accurate way to look at these sorts of things. This thread was all about the issues you stated above. How good is Culpepper? How good is Carson? We can argue back and forth all we want but until their value is set like a new contract or a trade then we really don't know.

Now we know their value and time has proven those that argued Carson is the better QB to be correct. I like using facts and a trade for a second rd pick is much more factual than yelling "you're wrong. Carson is better".


It's not personal for me. There were quite a few who took the side Betterread did. I just used his post to illustrate the lunacy of those who spent page after page arguing that Culpepper was the better QB who just happened to have a bad game.

There's no such thing as an outdated post unless these players retire.

[Patrick Bateman]

Hindsight is the clearest, most accurate way to look at these sorts of things. This thread was all about the issues you stated above. How good is Culpepper? How good is Carson? We can argue back and forth all we want but until their value is set like a new contract or a trade then we really don't know.

Now we know their value and time has proven those that argued Carson is the better QB to be correct. I like using facts and a trade for a second rd pick is much more factual than yelling "you're wrong. Carson is better".


It's not personal for me. There were quite a few who took the side Betterread did. I just used his post to illustrate the lunacy of those who spent page after page arguing that Culpepper was the better QB who just happened to have a bad game.

There's no such thing as an outdated post unless these players retire.

But when Betteread wrote that he had a very plausible argument. Culpepper was sruggling, but was also coming off a MVP calibre year. Palmer was looking good, but was still a bit of an unknown.

It's pretty easy telling someone they are wrong after all of the facts come out. When BR wrote his comment Culpepper would not have been traded for a 2nd round pick, his value had to drop considerably based on a bad year and turmoil in the franchise. Palmer would not have recieved the contract he did 5 games into the season.

Now I never agreed with BR and still don't, but his argument was very reasonable at the time. If he made the argument right now, he would be dead wrong. Hindsight may be 20-20, but it is also unfair in many circumstances. It may have proved you right this time, but it doesn't make BR's argument any less rationale.

[WMR]

But when Betteread wrote that he had a very plausible argument. Culpepper was sruggling, but was also coming off a MVP calibre year. Palmer was looking good, but was still a bit of an unknown.

It's pretty easy telling someone they are wrong after all of the facts come out. When BR wrote his comment Culpepper would not have been traded for a 2nd round pick, his value had to drop considerably based on a bad year and turmoil in the franchise. Palmer would not have recieved the contract he did 5 games into the season.

Now I never agreed with BR and still don't, but his argument was very reasonable at the time. If he made the argument right now, he would be dead wrong. Hindsight may be 20-20, but it is also unfair in many circumstances. It may have proved you right this time, but it doesn't make BR's argument any less rationale.

As true as all that is, it doesn't change the bigger truth.

(and I'm one who believes that Daunte has some good football ahead of him... just not Carson Palmer-level football... as I said many months ago)

[Sea Ray]

When BR wrote his comment Culpepper would not have been traded for a 2nd round pick, his value had to drop considerably based on a bad year and turmoil in the franchise. Palmer would not have recieved the contract he did 5 games into the season.

Now I never agreed with BR and still don't, but his argument was very reasonable at the time. If he made the argument right now, he would be dead wrong. Hindsight may be 20-20, but it is also unfair in many circumstances. It may have proved you right this time, but it doesn't make BR's argument any less rationale.

I totally disagree. I felt Culpepper looked like a washed up has been at the time and that Carson Palmer looked like a franchise QB. Maybe I can see the future a little better than some.

[WMR]

I totally disagree. I felt Culpepper looked like a washed up has been at the time and that Carson Palmer looked like a franchise QB. Maybe I can see the future a little better than some.

[Patrick Bateman]

I totally disagree. I felt Culpepper looked like a washed up has been at the time and that Carson Palmer looked like a franchise QB. Maybe I can see the future a little better than some.

I never agreed with Br, I'm just saying that there are some makeable arguments that Culpepper was the better QB.

I still think Dante has some good years left in him, but at the time I would not have traded Palmer for him and I definitelt would not now. He is far superior.

I was just trying to defend BR because IMO, it's unfair to drag a post back from a season ago to determine whether he was right at the time.

Anyways we all know now that Palmer is the man and that is all that really matters.

[Sea Ray]

I never agreed with Br, I'm just saying that there are some makeable arguments that Culpepper was the better QB.

I still think Dante has some good years left in him, but at the time I would not have traded Palmer for him and I definitelt would not now. He is far superior.

I was just trying to defend BR because IMO, it's unfair to drag a post back from a season ago to determine whether he was right at the time.

Anyways we all know now that Palmer is the man and that is all that really matters.

Anything we write on the internet for all the world to see, we are accountable for. If Culpepper leads the Dolphins to the Super Bowl and someone wants to remind folks what was written here, that's fair game in my book.

[Patrick Bateman]

Anything we write on the internet for all the world to see, we are accountable for. If Culpepper leads the Dolphins to the Super Bowl and someone wants to remind folks what was written here, that's fair game in my book.

That's totally different from your original post of:

"Well now we know Daunte's value and it isn't even a first rd pick. The Dolphins set his value at a 2nd rd pick. We've also seen how much money the Bengals think Carson Palmer is worth".

When BR's post was made this post was inaccurate. The Vikings would not have dealt Dante for a 2nd round pick and the Bengals would not have given Palmer the big contract. IT took a very, very good year from Palmer and a god awful year from Dante to make it all happen.

I would agree that BR was wrong on his conception that Dante had more value than Palmer, but the current value of worth for the 2 is not the same as it was then.

[Sea Ray]

That's totally different from your original post of:

"Well now we know Daunte's value and it isn't even a first rd pick. The Dolphins set his value at a 2nd rd pick. We've also seen how much money the Bengals think Carson Palmer is worth".

When BR's post was made this post was inaccurate. The Vikings would not have dealt Dante for a 2nd round pick and the Bengals would not have given Palmer the big contract. IT took a very, very good year from Palmer and a god awful year from Dante to make it all happen.

I would agree that BR was wrong on his conception that Dante had more value than Palmer, but the current value of worth for the 2 is not the same as it was then.

I disagree that you or I know what the Vikings would have traded Daunte for. Now we do know. Hence the addition of new facts. I also think the Bengals were planning on giving Carson the extention for some time. You don't just wake up one day and come up with that kind of money. That takes a lot of planning and budgeting on the Bengal's part. They also had to work out the cap implications. I think the Bengals were indeed planning Carson's big contract as far back as the 5th week.

[Patrick Bateman]

I disagree that you or I know what the Vikings would have traded Daunte for. Now we do know. Hence the addition of new facts. I also think the Bengals were planning on giving Carson the extention for some time. You don't just wake up one day and come up with that kind of money. That takes a lot of planning and budgeting on the Bengal's part. They also had to work out the cap implications. I think the Bengals were indeed planning Carson's big contract as far back as the 5th week.

So what you are saying is that if Dante won the MVP then his trade value would still be a 2nd round pick, or if Palmer played like Rob Johnson for the rest of the year the Bengals would have spent the dough they did on Palmer? I do agree that it looked like the Bengals were waiting to give Palmer the big contract, but they waited him to earn it instead of basing everything on his future play. Because he had such a good season they gave him the contract.

Just because the Vikings traded him for a 2nd round pick today gives absolutely no indication of what they would have dealt him for at the beginning of the year. It was a completely different situation and Dante was a completely different QB. We do not know what the Vikings were willing to trade Dante for based on this trade, but we do know that it would have been more than what he was dealt for today. The reason is simple. Dante's value went down as the season wore on. At the begiining of the season he was a MVP contender, while at the end a slug.

[Sabo Fan]

Well now we know Daunte's value and it isn't even a first rd pick. The Dolphins set his value at a 2nd rd pick. We've also seen how much money the Bengals think Carson Palmer is worth. So yeah, no way would the Bengals trade Palmer for Culpepper. Heck the Bengals could have traded a 2nd rd pick for him like the Dolphins did.

It's ludicrous to even infer that Culpepper has a value in the ballpark as Carson Palmer

You know, I was willing to forget all the asinine things you said on this thread previously before you decided to dredge this up and essentially try to use the Culpepper trade as a way to prove the moronic conceptions you seem to have about him and the Vikings in general. If you want to intelligently discuss this trade and its implications, that's fine, but using this thread in an attempt to pat yourself on the back is childish. In no previous post on this thread do I recall you mentioning that you thought Culpepper would sustain an injury, publicly demand a trade and be dealt at his lowest possible value. Had you done that then I could see the point in your post. Interesting how no Viking fan chose to dig this thing up when Palmer's season was ended and there was talk of it being a potentially career-ending injury.

Anyway, once again you prove your relative lack of football knowledge, or perhaps just your refusal to look at all factors. If you had looked at the big picture instead of spouting off you would see that there is absolutely no way that this trade is an accurate representation of Culpepper's value. The guy sustained a serious injury, much like Palmer did. Add in the fact that Daunte publicly demanded a trade out of Minnesota and his transgressions involving Lake Minnetonka and there was no way that the Vikings could have hoped to get equal value. Look at the Terrell Owens situation. Did you see what the Eagles got for him? Quite a haul, don't you think? Personally, I'm surprised they got a second round pick for Culpepper considering the situation.

We've seen how much the Bengals think Palmer is worth, have we? Perhaps, though I think you'd see a much different picture had he sustained his injury pre-contract. Think they'd be willing to give him that kind of jack afterwards? Thought so. What do you think the Bengals could get for Palmer now? More than Culpepper? Actually, I'll pre-emptively agree with you and say that they would (age is really the only factor in that difference though, and it's not fair to de-value Culpepper there, after all it's not his fault when he was born), though probably not as much as you think, for the simple reason that he's injured, much like Culpepper.

Let's look to the future here a bit and go all hypothetical. You seem so sure of Palmer's ability so tell me what his value would be if four or so years from now a 28 or 29 year-old Carson Palmer has no Chad Johnson to throw to, no Rudi Johnson to hand off to and no Willie Anderson to block for him, tears his MCL, PCL and ACL in a game, and then demands a trade out of Cincinnati following the season. Think he'd warrant a second round pick? I'll say Palmer has about the same chance of netting a second rounder in return as Culpepper did.

[WVRed]

I'm a Bengals fan, but if Palmer struggles or suffers a career altering injury, I hope some people can take it as well as they dish it out.

I guess Daunte can party now in the Atlantic Ocean instead of Lake Minnesota. I don't think he will ever return to form, between the injury and the lack of Randy Moss. Then again, maybe Chris Chambers will step it up.

[Sea Ray]

So what you are saying is that if Dante won the MVP then his trade value would still be a 2nd round pick, or if Palmer played like Rob Johnson for the rest of the year the Bengals would have spent the dough they did on Palmer? I do agree that it looked like the Bengals were waiting to give Palmer the big contract, but they waited him to earn it instead of basing everything on his future play. Because he had such a good season they gave him the contract.

Just because the Vikings traded him for a 2nd round pick today gives absolutely no indication of what they would have dealt him for at the beginning of the year. It was a completely different situation and Dante was a completely different QB. We do not know what the Vikings were willing to trade Dante for based on this trade, but we do know that it would have been more than what he was dealt for today. The reason is simple. Dante's value went down as the season wore on. At the begiining of the season he was a MVP contender, while at the end a slug.

The issue is how good is Culpepper? As of the 5th game of the year some folks were saying he was one of the best in the league. I argued, no he was one of the best but he's not any longer. Now we see they had a hard time finding any team to even take him. It tells me that the league agrees with me and they saw the same things I saw when I made those comments in October.

[Sea Ray]

Let's look to the future here a bit and go all hypothetical. You seem so sure of Palmer's ability so tell me what his value would be if four or so years from now a 28 or 29 year-old Carson Palmer has no Chad Johnson to throw to, no Rudi Johnson to hand off to and no Willie Anderson to block for him, tears his MCL, PCL and ACL in a game, and then demands a trade out of Cincinnati following the season. Think he'd warrant a second round pick? I'll say Palmer has about the same chance of netting a second rounder in return as Culpepper did.

Fair enough. Let's play your hypothetical. If four years from now your scenario takes place, I will not argue that Carson Palmer is still great. I will say he's a has been and I appreciate his past work. I said similar things in the early 90s regarding Boomer Esiason and I was glad they drafted his replacement, Klingler although unfortunately they had no idea how to groom a young QB.

The average NFL career is just over 3 years. Your day in the sun is short and I realize this. I'm not saying that Palmer will have a better career than Culpepper. I don't know. I am saying that as of 2005 Palmer is a better QB than Culpepper and that's when some idiots, who know as much football as Matt Millen, argued that Carson Palmer wasn't worth Culpepper one for one in a trade. Well now we know what Culpepper is worth and yes I agree with you, I was surprised they even got a 2nd rd pick for him.