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Thread: Bengals v. Vikings

  1. #76
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns
    I'll have to quote you on this one: "try reading a post and make sure you actually understand it b/f you start ripping the poster's crdibility".

    I suggest you follow your own advice next time.
    Well, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about things, but, reading his post, it could be interpreted either way and still be interpreted correctly. He even went so far as to clarify his statement w/o questioning my statement concerning his previous post. I think he understood that his post was vague, and corrected the vagueness.

    When he clarified his position, I retracted my statement...

    Is it really that boring in Canada?

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  3. #77
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns
    I do give WMR credit for that but I still think he was a little harsh to BR when it was a mistake anybody (including himself) could easily make.
    The link between what I posted and what Betterread posted is tenuous at best.

    He questioned my honesty and integrity.

    I merely restated my position while refuting Sea Ray's post which could have been interpreted either way.

  4. #78
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Well, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about things, but, reading his post, it could be interpreted either way and still be interpreted correctly. He even went so far as to clarify his statement w/o questioning my statement concerning his previous post. I think he understood that his post was vague, and corrected the vagueness.

    When he clarified his position, I retracted my statement...

    Is it really that boring in Canada?
    Unless is involves a puck, I would say 'yes'...eh?
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  5. #79
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Well, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about things, but, reading his post, it could be interpreted either way and still be interpreted correctly. He even went so far as to clarify his statement w/o questioning my statement concerning his previous post. I think he understood that his post was vague, and corrected the vagueness.

    When he clarified his position, I retracted my statement...
    Exactly. As we get to typing away and multitasking Lord knows what else at the same time, we tend to not be as clear as we'd like. I never gave it another thought...I just clarified my position and moved on.

  6. #80
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray
    Who added the caveat "if the two were the same age, made the money etc"? They'll never be the same age so why add that in? You said you understand not trading Palmer for Daunte so we're in agreement. That's all I've been saying.

    Now if you want to compare the two at the same age then you have to go back to their senior year in college. Palmer was a Heisman Trophy winner and was the #1 pick in the draft. Culpepper was the 5th QB taken that year, so the NFL personnel guys you refer to seem to have preferred Palmer.
    I did, and I stand by my statement. What I was saying is that from a pure talent standpoint, Culpepper is the superior quarterback. I believe, and you'll undoubtedly disagree with me, that Daunte is the second-most physically gifted quarterback in the league, behind Vick. Mobile, huge, big arm, etc.

    Go back and take a look at that draft. Culpepper was the fourth quarterback taken, after Couch, McNabb, and Akili Smith. Cade McNown was taken with the pick right after Minnesota. You surely meant that as a slight to Culpepper, but look at that draft class. You think any of those teams want those picks back now? You bet they would, with the exception of two. Don't slight Culpepper because other teams made poor draft choices.

    Dig further into that draft and you'll find lots of people who said that without a doubt, Culpepper was the most physically gifted of the group. The problem was that he played at a small school (UCF) and no one was quite sure how those skills would translate. Me, I think they translated pretty well. Palmer on the other hand, was on a national powerhouse and got tons of media exposure. I wouldn't put too much stock into the Heisman Trophy either. Look up and down that list and you'll find plenty of winners who never even came close to being serviceable NFLers. Not a great indicator of future success, though the early returns on Palmerís career are very encouraging.

    Don't cop out and say you don't know. C'mon, we're fans here trying to evaluate talent. Palmer is unproven.

    I'll go on record as saying yes, I think Palmer can put up numbers in his prime equal to Culpepper's 2004. No one knows for sure. But we all like to play GM and that's what running a team is all about. How accurately can you project a player.

    Do you think Palmer will put up numbers as good as Culpepper's best year or are you going to plead the 5th again? Tell us yes or no and why you think that way. That's what this board is all about...
    For the record, I don't need you to tell me what I need to take a stance on and what I don't. Thanks.

    But so as to indulge you, I'll say that no, I don't think Carson Palmer can put up numbers that approach Culpepper's 2004 season. Take a look: 41 TD's, 70% completion percentage, 111 QB rating, 5,100 total yards. That in my book is downright unconscious. Palmer will be a very good quarterback, a consistent 30 TD guy, and he may have a crazy year like Culpepper did, but I doubt it. He just doesn't seem to me to be a guy whose attributes are off the charts. Very solid all-around, but nothing he does makes me sit back and say "wow." When I see Culpepper shrug off a blitzing linebacker and then immediately chuck the ball 50 yards downfield, that makes me say "wow." The only real advantage I see that Palmer has over Culpepper is age. Even that though isn't huge, Daunte is just 28, certainly not over-the-hill by any means.

    All this talk about whether or not to trade Culpepper for Palmer seems ridiculous to me, though for a different reason I'm sure. If I'm the GM of a team that is looking to compete for a Super Bowl right now, I want Culpepper as my quarterback over Palmer. More experience, better all-around athlete. Palmer is better off being on a younger team where he can better assume a leadership role and grow with the rest of his team. You all probably think I'm crazy, but a GM who turns down a Palmer for Culpepper trade (he'd be the one getting Palmer) would not immediately lose his job. You could make the case that if you're the 49ers or Browns or any other rebuilding team that a trade like that makes sense because the goal is to get younger. Otherwise, you're taking a step back.

    The reason us Bengal fans would prefer Palmer to Culpepper is because Carson is the up and coming QB and Culpepper's career has peaked. We're looking to the future while the Vikings are on the downswing.
    I really don't know where to start.

    Let me get this straight: you're saying that at the age of 28, Culpepper has peaked? That means it's all downhill from here, right? No continuation, but rather a sudden drop-off in production. Iím saying that because itís the only way you can justify wanting Palmer as your quarterback over Culpepper.

    Just exactly what makes you think that? Let me say this again: he is 28 years old. I don't know of too many quarterbacks who suddenly fell off the face of the planet after two Pro Bowl seasons at the ages of 26 and 27. Granted, his numbers couldn't get much better than they did last year, but going into this season there was no reason to believe they would drop-off dramatically. While his first two games have been bad, I said before that I have no doubt he will rebound as soon as things get settled around him and put up comparable numbers.

    The Vikings are on the downswing? Well thank goodness you let me know, because otherwise I might be getting my hopes up for the next couple of years without any reason to. I mean, a team with a great young defensive line that includes possibly the premier DT in the game in Kevin Williams, some promising young linebackers and two top-shelf cornerbacks who have at least four years of top-flight production left is probably cause for concern.

    Things are even worse on the other side of the ball, come to think of it. According to you, Culpepper's career is sure to go downhill from here, and surely the offensive line shows no promise, what with Bryant McKinnie, Mike Rosenthal, Marcus Johnson, Adam Goldberg and Chris Liwienski all on their last legs (for those wondering, Johnson was a second round pick in 2004, McKinnie is 26, Goldberg is 25, Rosenthal is 28, and Liwienski is the elder statesman of the group at 30. This doesn't include Matt Birk, who is 29, but I didn't list him at first because of the questions surrounding his health).

    Looking at the wide receivers things just get worse, seeing as how Burleson is obviously done at the age of 24, as is Troy Williamson at 22, Travis Taylor at 26, and newcomer Koren Robinson at 25. What about running backs, you ask? Certainly they paint a dark picture as well. Mewelde Moore is in his second year, Ciatrick Fason is a rookie, Onterrio Smith (assuming he can stay off the Ricky Williams health program) will be in his fourth year when/if he returns next year and Michael Bennett is 27.

    You know, maybe you have a point. Looks to me as though there will certainly be rough times ahead for this team, especially since they have no cap room to go out and add/retain players and an owner who doesn't want to win.



    Now I think I'll take your advice and tell you what I really think and not "cop out" as you say: you could not possibly be more wrong about the Vikings. Next time, do your homework before you go spouting off about who's finished and on the downswing. Trust me, we'll all be better for it.

    This is very much an up and coming team. More so now because we have an owner willing to spend and will again have the cap room to do it in the off season. Maybe the preseason Super Bowl hype was premature (I don't think so, this is as talented a team as I've seen in Minnesota since I've been around, with the possible exception of 1998, though that team was skewed way towards offensive talent), but they are by no means headed for trouble because of a lack of young talent. Maybe you should look away from that bright shining sun that is the Bengals, put on some sunglasses and look around the league, because believe it or not there are other franchises with just as much promise as your wonderful Cincinnati Bengals.
    "It's still a long way to the top if we want to rock'n'roll, but at least they dumped the tuba player."
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  7. #81
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Well, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about things
    Well IMO you were. your post was condescending and could have been refuted in a different way. Your point was extremely hypocritical. My point is you made the same mistake and in one instance you were insulting and in another very apologetic. Just stay consistent.

  8. #82
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    I'm a Bengals fan, and I totally agree with SaboFan's assesment.

    The Vikings are in a transition year, and once that O line gets healthy, we'll see a marked improvement in Daunte Culpepper's numbers.

    Nobody this side of Dan Marino and Peyton Manning have put up the kind of numbers he did in '04, and as I recall last year was thought to be Nate Burleson's coming out party. Do they miss Moss, well, yeah, but give Culpepper some time and he'll make Burleson a star. Funny how the lack of a running game, and Culpepper's recent struggles all coincide with the loss of key members to the offensive line.

    I think selling the Vikings short sells the Bengals short in the process. Palmer and the Bengals offense absolutely shined against a very good Vikings defense, and the whole team benefitted from injuries to the Vikings, add to that a rowdy crowd, and the Vikings couldn't handle it.

    The Vikings and Daunte Culpepper don't stink, it's just that the Bengals are a good enough team now to take advantage of weaknesses.

    I think it really is that simple.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  9. #83
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    SaboFan, if you want to me to read what you have to say, you'll have to learn to be more brief. It's not worth my time to read a post as long as yours. This isn't War and Peace yet you decided you needed to write 100plus lines to illustrate your point. I don't care enough about what you have to say to read that much. Obviously you feel very strongly about your Vikings and I'm happy for you. They're not a rival of the Bengals so I wish them well. I disagree on your optimism but who knows. I respect where you're coming from.

    Are you sold on Mike Tice? I see him as not being the answer and a new regime coming in which will likely extend this "transition period."

  10. #84
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray
    SaboFan, if you want to me to read what you have to say, you'll have to learn to be more brief. It's not worth my time to read a post as long as yours. This isn't War and Peace yet you decided you needed to write 100plus lines to illustrate your point. I don't care enough about what you have to say to read that much. Obviously you feel very strongly about your Vikings and I'm happy for you. They're not a rival of the Bengals so I wish them well. I disagree on your optimism but who knows. I respect where you're coming from.

    Are you sold on Mike Tice? I see him as not being the answer and a new regime coming in which will likely extend this "transition period."
    The reason my post was so long was that it had to be in order to clear up the various misconceptions you seem to have about the Vikings, Bengals, and football in general. If you want me to have shorter explanations, then put some thought and research into the things you write and then I won't have to "write 100-plus lines to illustrate my point."

    You don't care about what I have to say enough to read that much, yet I took time to read all of the things you wrote and then reply to them. If you want people to take your views seriously, I suggest you take the time to read opposing viewpoints and learn from them. I won't apologize for being thorough. My guess is that a portion of the way through you came to the conclusion that you may have been off-base with some of the things you said and just decided to stop reading. Your choice really, but I don't need you to tell me that you don't care about what I have to say.

    Tell us yes or no and why you think that way. That's what this board is all about...
    Interesting that you criticize me for not taking a stance as you perceived it and "copping out," yet you just said you don't have time to read my viewpoints when I do take a stance. So what's the point in me articulating my position? I guess you should take your own advice.

    In case you don't decide to read my last post, allow me to hit the high points for you: Daunte Culpepper > Carson Palmer. Your view on the Vikings current state vs. the current state of the Bengals = ignorant and incorrect.

    As for Tice, I don't think he's the answer as head coach. As a person, I like the guy and he is a wonderful offensive line coach. However, that doesn't mean he can be a successful head coach. The Vikings can turn this thing around, and my feeling is that if they do, they'll do it with Tice at the helm for the simple reason that I don't think there is anyone out there who is better and can come in at this juncture and make a significant difference. I think Tice is gone at the end of the year regardless of what occurs for the rest of this season and Wilf spends big bucks to get a top head coach. From what I've seen/heard/read about him, he doesn't like to lose and is willing to spend, a stark departure from the former owner, which is the reason Tice is the coach now.
    "It's still a long way to the top if we want to rock'n'roll, but at least they dumped the tuba player."
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  11. #85
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns
    Well IMO you were. your post was condescending and could have been refuted in a different way. Your point was extremely hypocritical. My point is you made the same mistake and in one instance you were insulting and in another very apologetic. Just stay consistent.
    The link between what I posted and what Betterread posted is tenuous at best.

    He questioned my honesty and integrity.

    I merely restated my position while refuting Sea Ray's post which could have been interpreted either way.

    There is no comparison between the two posts which is why my responses were disparate.

  12. #86
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    The link between what I posted and what Betterread posted is tenuous at best.

    He questioned my honesty and integrity.

    I merely restated my position while refuting Sea Ray's post which could have been interpreted either way.

    There is no comparison between the two posts which is why my responses were disparate.
    I read Sea Ray's post and understood it perfectly yet I didn't go off on a rampage since you misinterpreted it. Anyways there is no need to get so worked up over such a small situation. I would suggest that instead of getting excited just re-state your opinion and make it more clear. It cant hurt and is the more personable way to do things.

    If you thought he questioned your integrity than maybe for once you should have been the bigger man instead of stooping down to his level and getting all mad.

    The point is you also made an honest mistake and I don't anybody was willing to give you heck for it. The only reason why I got involved was because you were extremely hypocritical. People interpret things differently and you have to underdstand that because misinterpretations happen all the time and IMO it's silly to get pissed over it.

  13. #87
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns
    If you thought he questioned your integrity than maybe for once you should have been the bigger man instead of stooping down to his level and getting all mad.

    The point is you also made an honest mistake and I don't anybody was willing to give you heck for it.
    I was never mad. I'm not going to get mad over a message board. I'm not, however, going to just let it go.

    I didn't respond like I did b/c he made a mistake. Lord knows I've made enough of them, as has probably everyone on this board outside of maybe Steel and WoY. LOL.

    The mistake was incidental to the way in which he questioned my credibility and honesty.

    Regardless, can we please just drop this and move on?

  14. #88
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Daunte Culpepper was suffering from the same delusions... "Randy doesn't matter" "I can still be just as good a QB w/o Randy" blah blah blah

    Maybe he's beginning to come back to reality.
    I have no wish to keep going around and around on this topic. But I wanted to make the point to WMR that if you are going to quote someone, get it right. I have suffered from being personally misquoted in the media and having to cover for clients that were misquoted, and its very stressful and emotionally draining. You know what the reporter said when I confronted him the last time it happened, "Geez, when I listen to my recording again, you said something similiar but not exactly what I wrote". Did he file a retraction. No.
    So, when WMR attributed words to Daunte Culpepper that did not sound right to me, I questioned him about it. He got defensive, but never a) provided a source for the quote; or b) said "I may have mis-quoted or incorrectly attributed words to him". This is far too common in today's world. It's as if you didn't intend to misquote someone, it's OK if you made a mistake. In my opinion, that relates to personal integrity. You can say that's an overreaction, but if you ever had the pleasure of being misquoted, you may be able to see my point of view.
    Last edited by Betterread; 09-20-2005 at 11:37 PM.

  15. #89
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread
    I have no wish to keep going around and around on this topic. But I wanted to make the point to WMR that if you are going to quote someone, get it right. I have suffered from being personally misquoted in the media and having to cover for clients that were misquoted, and its very stressful and emotionally draining. You know what the reporter said when I confronted him the last time it happened, "Geez, when I listen to my recording again, you said something similiar but not exactly what I wrote". Did he file a retraction. No.
    So, when WMR attributed words to Daunte Culpepper that did not sound right to me, I questioned him about it. He got defensive, but never a) provided a source for the quote; or b) said "I may have mis-quoted or incorrectly attributed words to him". This is far too common in today's world. It's as if you didn't intend to misquote someone, it's OK if you made a mistake.
    I'm sorry I didn't use the proper ALWD citation form. I heard him say words which, if not verbatim, amounted to exactly what I said. The source was either a press conference or interview w/ Daunte Culpepper that was played on ESPN Radio. I thought I said that in a previous post?

  16. #90
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Good Grief.

    Why don't you guys just whip you johnsons out, measure 'em, and end this pissing match already.


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