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Thread: Bengals v. Vikings

  1. #46
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    No way, IMO. Vick brings so much more to an offense with his entire game. It chages the way a defense has to operate. The problem I have with Vick is that the second he loses a step or has a tender hammy, or any injury that slows him at all, he's pretty much worthless. But as long as he's as explosive as he is now, I think he's a fantatic weapon at QB.
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  3. #47
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    I've always contended that if Akili had been coddled rather than thrown into the fray, he very well could have developed into a productive NFL quarterback.

    Taking into consideration his abbreviated career at Oregon with a protracted holdout that caused him to miss the majority of his rookie training camp, compounded with his acknowledged difficulty in grasping the system (due as much to the previous 2 probably as anything else) and you've got yourself a recipe for disaster.


    As to Vick: Injury concerns or not, I take that guy in a heartbeat. He's the most exciting player in football, and, despite his shortcomings, I would take him on my squad any day of the week.
    Akili and Vick are similar QBs. In order for Akili to excell the offense would have to revolve around his scrambling ability. The Bengals were not prepared to do that. Other NFL teams have also failed to make him into a pocket passer. This was most recently tried by TB by sending him to NFL Europe. After seeing that season they cut him.

    As for Michael Vick, what are you going to do when he gets hurt? Sometimes it'll be serious like that broken bone a couple years ago and sometimes it's a hamstring like yesterday. Even the hamstring injuries are more serious for him than for a pocket passer.

    I have come around to the traditional thinking of NFL GMs and that is the risk of injury is too great in the NFL to have your QB scrambling around for 100 yards a game.

    I'd much prefer a few key scrambles like Elway would do.

  4. #48
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    No way, IMO. Vick brings so much more to an offense with his entire game. It chages the way a defense has to operate. The problem I have with Vick is that the second he loses a step or has a tender hammy, or any injury that slows him at all, he's pretty much worthless. But as long as he's as explosive as he is now, I think he's a fantatic weapon at QB.
    This reminds me of the Joe Carter/Eric Davis arguments I had with Cleveland fans 20 years ago.

    Now that both of then are retired we can evaluate their careers. I must now admit that Joe Carter was the better player and it was because he showed up and played every day. Eric Davis was flashy and looked like a world beater when healthy but his style of play led to many trips to the DL.

    Michael Vick is getting an MRI today instead of going to practice and preparing for next week. When he's not in there the entire offense changes...the playbook, the way the O-line blocks...everything. The risk isn't worth it.

    I'll take a big durable pocket passer like CP or Ben with some mobility. I don't want a statue back there like Bernie Kosar...

  5. #49
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Do you know which quarterback in the NFL sustained the TOP QB Rating from November of last season through this weekend?

    Carson Palmer, that's who. Carson Palmer is in his second year and is putting up numbers easily comparable to Daunte Culpepper who is now playing in his SEVENTH. Daunte's career is likely at least already halfway finished. Carson's is just beginning. The Bengals are on the way up. The Vikings?? I'm not going to pronounce them dead yet; LOL, look at their division, you've gotta try REALLY hard not to be in the mix of things.

    Lots can change from week to week, there's no doubt about that.

    However: You're not going to find many people willing to trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper.

    The only QBs I would trade Carson Palmer for are Peyton Manning and Mike Vick. I'm not even sure that Vick would be a better QB for the Bengals... actually, it is doubtful. I still couldn't pass up that excitement.

    Daunte Culpepper? Pass.

    Hmmm... oh, yeah, Culpepper "LED" the Vikings to the NFC Championship game against the NY Giants. LOL, let's hope that that doesn't remain as the highlight of his career.

    Passing
    Daunte Culpepper 13-28 for 78 yards, 3 INT, 0 TD.

    Avg. Yards per pass 1.9

    Fumbles Lost
    Daunte Culpepper, Moe Williams

    Final Score: NY Giants 41 - Minnesota Vikings 0

    The thing is, I'm willing to give the guy a mulligan on that one. He was, after all, only in his second year. Please, however, don't try and make that out to be some sort of glowing endorsement of his QB prowess. After all, he put up a big goose egg with 3 INTs w/ Randy Moss and Cris Carter out there running routes for him. If he had continued to improve after that season, your argument that he's Carson's superior might hold more weight. I have not, however, seen any performances from Daunte Culpepper that suggest he is anything more than a QB with average accuracy and an above-average arm with the ability to throw Randy Moss a bomb.

    Will Carson continue to progress? All signs point to yes; Irregardless: Compare his current abilities with those of Culpepper along with HIS current ceiling and DAUNTE'S ceiling for improvement. It is obvious which QB stands the best chance to improve his game, and, therefore, be more valuable to an NFL team.

    I heard a really interesting quote on Daunte's performances against the Bucs and Bengals... I can't remember the guys name, but he usually comes up with some pretty good stuff.
    "During Daunte's tenure with the Vikes, there would be 2-3 times per game when he would just run around in the backfield and launch the ball downfield where it would be caught by Randy Moss.
    The funny thing is, he's still trying to play that way."

    We disagree. Calling a hail mary to Randy Moss does not constitute brilliant play calling. Losing the O-Linemen hurts, no doubt about it, but that's not the biggest reason the Vikings have been struggling.

    Maybe Daunte will improve, and I hope that he does, but as things stand right now, he appears to have been exposed as a guy who garnered lots of success riding the coattails of Randy Moss.
    Where to start... that's fantastic that Palmer has been very good in what, his last eight games or so. No doubt he's a talented quarterback who is on the upswing. However, I'd like to wait for him to get a full year in before I go proclaiming him to be the second best QB in the NFL (which is essentially what you're saying). You hear all the time about small sample size and that concerns me with Palmer. He's good, no question, but I'll take Culpepper over Palmer every time. Moss certainly helped him, but couldn't you make the same case that Chad Johnson helps Carson Palmer out? Culpepper's career QB rating is 91.5 and he has a career completion percentage just a bit under 65%. I don't care who you are, there is no QB that can put up those numbers if he was just a byproduct of a great wide receiver. Are we suddenly going to knock the likes of Montana and Young down a notch because they had Jerry Rice? No, and you would be crazy to. So why is it any different with Culpepper? He's proven he's a big-time player in this league.

    Then let's take a look at that 2000 NFC Championship game. Before Culpepper even set foot on the field he was down 14-0 and facing a team playing downhill. Add in one awful defense that gave up points at an alarming rate and again you have a situation no QB can succeed in. That game was essentially over by the time he took the first snap. Oh, and he did lead them to that game, throwing 33 TD passes with 16 interceptions and a QB rating of 98.0 that year. Not too bad.

    Don't get me wrong here; Culpepper has struggled very badly at times. His 2001 and 2002 seasons were very poor, but he was playing on teams that were also very poor. Having to score 35 points a game isn't a good thing to ask a young QB to do. You may not be willing to look past the raw numbers those two years, but I watched just about every game during those two seasons and can tell you that he was a QB trying to shoulder way too much of the load, much like he is this season. It was a recipe for an injury those years (he missed the final five games of the 2001 season) and I worry it might be the same this year. Even during those two years he put up respectable numbers in the completion percentage department of 61 and 64. In 2002, he tossed for 3800 yards. Not too bad for a team that went 6-10.

    When I look at Daunte Culpepper I see the second-most physically gifted QB in the league (behind Vick, though in his case I think I'd trade some of that insane physical ability for a few more points of completion percentage). The guy has linebacker size, great arm strength and mobility, and has shown over his career to be a very accurate passer. I understand not wanting to trade Palmer for Culpepper, but I don't think you would find too many NFL personnel guys who wouldn't if the two were the same age, made the same money, etc.

    Look at Culpepper's 2004 season. If you do, take it in, because you're looking at one of the best statistical seasons for a QB of all-time. Don't take my word for it, look at what the pundits said about it and do the research, you'll see the same thing. 41 TD's (2 running), a completion percentage of 70%, a rating of 111. Look at those numbers and tell me that's a "QB with average accuracy and an above-average arm with the ability to throw Randy Moss a bomb," as you so eloquently stated. Do you work for the Browns by any chance?

    I don't know who wrote the quote you cited, but he's way off. In fact, the opposite is true. Sure they'd throw the bomb to Moss 2-3 times a game, but so would every other offensive coordinator worth a darn. I don't see how that's an indictment of Culpepper's ability, that's just maximizing the talent of your personnel. Now though, Culpepper seems to be looking to throw shorter routes to his receivers all the time. I haven't seen him take more than three shots downfield through the first two games. What's happened is that defenses know they have no running game so they can drop the safeties back and wait for him to throw. There is no consistent deep threat on the Vikings right now so there's no reason to double anyone and it forces Culpepper to thread the needle every time and force the ball into coverage. No QB can succeed with no running game, a center and right guard who resemble turnstiles and who is also playing behind most of the time. None. Simply cannot happen.

    Bottom line here: Culpepper has proven that he is an elite NFL quarterback, despite his awful start to 2005. Unfortunately, it seems as though a lot of Viking fans share your mindset that he's only an average QB and seem ready to throw him under the bus. Fortunately for the Vikings though they have good front office people and an owner who know better. I have no doubt that he'll turn things around and return to form at some point this season. I wish I knew when that will be, but there was so much off-season change at key positions that it's difficult to tell when things will get straightened out.
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Would the Bengals trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper? They wouldn't trade Carson for Daunte, EVER. Carson is a more accurate passer, and is further along development-wise 3 years in than Daunte is at this point in his career. Not sure how many years he's been in the league.
    You're free to have your opinion.
    But Daunte career completion percentage is 64.3 to Palmer's 62.5 (this is after 2 excellent games and his percentage this year is over 71% - and if you think Palmer will sustain that this year, then you believe the Bengals will go 16-0) so your assertion is not backed up by quantitative fact.
    Also, Daunte has won a couple of playoff games and at least gotten to the NFC championship. We both know how far Palmer has gone in the postseason. How many "big" games has he won. I'm trying to remember. Can you help jog my memory?
    Your comparison of their success at the same stage of their development is flawed as Daunte threw 33 TDs in his second year.
    And finally, don't indulge in trashing Daunte. He plays the game the right way, and has a great deal of character. If you are the kind of person that values integrity, hard work, humility and accountability, you should not be ripping Daunte.

  7. #51
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo Fan
    Where to start... that's fantastic that Palmer has been very good in what, his last eight games or so. No doubt he's a talented quarterback who is on the upswing. However, I'd like to wait for him to get a full year in before I go proclaiming him to be the second best QB in the NFL (which is essentially what you're saying). You hear all the time about small sample size and that concerns me with Palmer. He's good, no question, but I'll take Culpepper over Palmer every time. Moss certainly helped him, but couldn't you make the same case that Chad Johnson helps Carson Palmer out? Culpepper's career QB rating is 91.5 and he has a career completion percentage just a bit under 65%. I don't care who you are, there is no QB that can put up those numbers if he was just a byproduct of a great wide receiver. Are we suddenly going to knock the likes of Montana and Young down a notch because they had Jerry Rice? No, and you would be crazy to. So why is it any different with Culpepper? He's proven he's a big-time player in this league.

    Then let's take a look at that 2000 NFC Championship game. Before Culpepper even set foot on the field he was down 14-0 and facing a team playing downhill. Add in one awful defense that gave up points at an alarming rate and again you have a situation no QB can succeed in. That game was essentially over by the time he took the first snap. Oh, and he did lead them to that game, throwing 33 TD passes with 16 interceptions and a QB rating of 98.0 that year. Not too bad.

    Don't get me wrong here; Culpepper has struggled very badly at times. His 2001 and 2002 seasons were very poor, but he was playing on teams that were also very poor. Having to score 35 points a game isn't a good thing to ask a young QB to do. You may not be willing to look past the raw numbers those two years, but I watched just about every game during those two seasons and can tell you that he was a QB trying to shoulder way too much of the load, much like he is this season. It was a recipe for an injury those years (he missed the final five games of the 2001 season) and I worry it might be the same this year. Even during those two years he put up respectable numbers in the completion percentage department of 61 and 64. In 2002, he tossed for 3800 yards. Not too bad for a team that went 6-10.

    When I look at Daunte Culpepper I see the second-most physically gifted QB in the league (behind Vick, though in his case I think I'd trade some of that insane physical ability for a few more points of completion percentage). The guy has linebacker size, great arm strength and mobility, and has shown over his career to be a very accurate passer. I understand not wanting to trade Palmer for Culpepper, but I don't think you would find too many NFL personnel guys who wouldn't if the two were the same age, made the same money, etc.

    Look at Culpepper's 2004 season. If you do, take it in, because you're looking at one of the best statistical seasons for a QB of all-time. Don't take my word for it, look at what the pundits said about it and do the research, you'll see the same thing. 41 TD's (2 running), a completion percentage of 70%, a rating of 111. Look at those numbers and tell me that's a "QB with average accuracy and an above-average arm with the ability to throw Randy Moss a bomb," as you so eloquently stated. Do you work for the Browns by any chance?

    I don't know who wrote the quote you cited, but he's way off. In fact, the opposite is true. Sure they'd throw the bomb to Moss 2-3 times a game, but so would every other offensive coordinator worth a darn. I don't see how that's an indictment of Culpepper's ability, that's just maximizing the talent of your personnel. Now though, Culpepper seems to be looking to throw shorter routes to his receivers all the time. I haven't seen him take more than three shots downfield through the first two games. What's happened is that defenses know they have no running game so they can drop the safeties back and wait for him to throw. There is no consistent deep threat on the Vikings right now so there's no reason to double anyone and it forces Culpepper to thread the needle every time and force the ball into coverage. No QB can succeed with no running game, a center and right guard who resemble turnstiles and who is also playing behind most of the time. None. Simply cannot happen.

    Bottom line here: Culpepper has proven that he is an elite NFL quarterback, despite his awful start to 2005. Unfortunately, it seems as though a lot of Viking fans share your mindset that he's only an average QB and seem ready to throw him under the bus. Fortunately for the Vikings though they have good front office people and an owner who know better. I have no doubt that he'll turn things around and return to form at some point this season. I wish I knew when that will be, but there was so much off-season change at key positions that it's difficult to tell when things will get straightened out.
    Interesting post, Sabo Fan.

    I don't hold any animosity towards Daunte; I wish him the best.

    As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

    If he's as great a QB as you profess, then I fully expect him to rise above losing his O-Coordinator, 2-linemen, and Randy Moss and find a way to at least make his team competitive. He certainly can't do it by himself, and I don't watch Daunte Culpepper play nearly as much as you do, but he can't use those aforementioned "situations" as excuses for why he cannot lead his team to success.

  8. #52
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Interesting post, Sabo Fan.

    I don't hold any animosity towards Daunte; I wish him the best.

    As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

    If he's as great a QB as you profess, then I fully expect him to rise above losing his O-Coordinator, 2-linemen, and Randy Moss and find a way to at least make his team competitive. He certainly can't do it by himself, and I don't watch Daunte Culpepper play nearly as much as you do, but he can't use those aforementioned "situations" as excuses for why he cannot lead his team to success.
    Daunte has not the excuses you have attributed to him, as far as I know. Can you find the quotes that you have attributed to him?
    If you cannot, I will assume you are making them up. Not that this would hurt your credibility any.

  9. #53
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread
    You're free to have your opinion.
    But Daunte career completion percentage is 64.3 to Palmer's 62.5 (this is after 2 excellent games and his percentage this year is over 71% - and if you think Palmer will sustain that this year, then you believe the Bengals will go 16-0) so your assertion is not backed up by quantitative fact.
    Also, Daunte has won a couple of playoff games and at least gotten to the NFC championship. We both know how far Palmer has gone in the postseason. How many "big" games has he won. I'm trying to remember. Can you help jog my memory?
    Your comparison of their success at the same stage of their development is flawed as Daunte threw 33 TDs in his second year.
    And finally, don't indulge in trashing Daunte. He plays the game the right way, and has a great deal of character. If you are the kind of person that values integrity, hard work, humility and accountability, you should not be ripping Daunte.
    I don't use completion percentage in my ranking of QBs. It isn't really a very good measuring stick in measuring overall QB-effectiveness. Sort of reminds me of BA in a way.

    Well, I would contend that every game in the NFL is "a big game." Some of the performances engineered by Palmer, esp. in the 2nd half last year, were nothing short of amazing for a 1st year starter. Some much more impressive starts and performances than ones put together by Ben Roethlisberger. I'm not calling him Dan Marino just yet, however. I'm only talking about Carson's POTENTIAL for greatness as well as how PROMISING his early returns have been.

    Nothing I've said about Daunte has been said with the intention of "ripping him." I'm into analysis, and I'm very curious to see how Daunte performs without his security blanket, and, to this point, he has suffered mightily.

    Saying that I would take Carson over Daunte is NOT a slam on Daunte. Rather, it demonstrates in what sort of esteem I hold Carson Palmer. I think the guy has got the tools and the BRAINS (just as important; lacking by many) to be one of the greats. Not to mention a surrounding cast that can truly enable him to shine.

    As for other big game performances: They don't give those Heisman's out for good looks. Carson set a lot of PAC-10 records at USC and played in enough big games, performing admirably, that I've got no doubt that any situation isn't going to "be too big for him."
    Last edited by WMR; 09-19-2005 at 10:13 PM.

  10. #54
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Sabo Fan - Some good news, in case you weren't aware of it.

    Vikings, Anoka County reach stadium deal
    Kevin Seifert, Star Tribune
    September 19, 2005 STADIUM0919.OL




    The Vikings will announce tomorrow an agreement to build a $675 million stadium and related development in Anoka County.

    A press conference has been scheduled for 10 a.m. Tuesday in Blaine, near the site where new owner Zygi Wilf plans to build the structure with a retractable roof, a Vikings team official said.

    Wilf and the NFL plan to combine on at least $250 million contribution, while Anoka County will provide at least $240 million through a county-wide sales tax.

    The Vikings and Anoka County will ask the state to make up the rest likely in infrastructure costs.

    "We've been working around the clock and we are just putting the finishing touches on the agreement,'' Vikings executive Lester Bagley said Monday.

    While he wouldn't detail the entire agreement, Bagley said it calls for the football stadium as part of a broader development project.

    The county would seek permission from the state Legislature to enact a 0.75 percent sales tax to help pay for construction and ask for the state to chip in for road projects around the site.

    Last week, new Vikings owner Zygi Wilf held a series of private meetings with top lawmakers, including Gov. Tim Pawlenty, about the stadium.

    At those meetings, he told the elected officials he was willing to contribute at least $250 million to the project.

    House Minority Leader Matt Entenza, DFL-St. Paul, said Wilf has gotten off on the right foot.

    "There's always going to be a lot of uneasiness about funding stadiums, but Zygi is doing a good job by making it clear we won't be blackmailed by the threat of a team leaving,'' Entenza said.

    How the plan will fare though is another matter, and Entenza said he'd withhold judgment until seeing it in writing.

    Gov. Tim Pawlenty's spokesman, Brian McClung, said the governor is "open to finding a reasonable way to ensure their long-term presence in Minnesota.''

    "The governor will be communicating with legislative leaders regarding stadiums and other issues shortly,'' McClung said. "We will evaluate the Vikings proposal in that context.''

    The Vikings stadium, parking lot, training facility and team headquarters would comprise 200 acres of the 740-acre overall Blaine development, which would also have retail space.

    The Vikings are under lease to play in the Metrodome until 2011. But the team has argued that the Dome is outdated. The Vikings rank near the bottom of the league in local revenue.

    Julie Shortridge, a county spokeswoman, said Anoka officials wouldn't comment until the news conference.

    The state has already put a nominal amount of money toward a new football stadium.

    In 2002, the Legislature provided $500,000 for football stadium design, but that was when the Vikings and University of Minnesota were trying to team up on a single facility.

    The Gophers are pursuing state money toward a $235 million on-campus stadium without a roof. The school is rounding up private dollars for 60 percent of it.

    This summer, lawmakers put off action on that proposal and one from the Minnesota Twins, which have joined with Hennepin County on a downtown ballpark plan that also relies on a higher local sales tax.

    John Knight, a Minnetonka lawyer who co-founded a residents group to fight the Twins bill, said stadium supporters are on the wrong side of public opinion. His group, Citizens for a Stadium Tax Referendum, wants a public vote on any local tax used for a stadium.

    "The people with a vested interest who want a stadium tax subsidy kind of remind me of a used car salesman the longer they keep trying, they more they wear you down,'' Knight said. "Generally, when you go to buy a car, the longer you are at the dealer, the more likely it is you are going to get screwed.''

  11. #55
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread
    Daunte has not the excuses you have attributed to him, as far as I know. Can you find the quotes that you have attributed to him?
    If you cannot, I will assume you are making them up. Not that this would hurt your credibility any.
    Read what I posted. READ IT AGAIN.

    I WAS SPEAKING IN THE FUTURE TENSE. I WAS NOT ATTRIBUTING ANY QUOTE TO DAUNTE CULPEPPER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE HAS SAID ABOUT ANYTHING, NOR DO I CARE.

    Funny, as the one who came on this thread telling me to stop acting rude and aggressive, you're the one who has come across as acting rude, aggressive, and mentally wayward.

    Try reading a post and making sure you actually understand it b/f you start ripping the poster's credibility.

  12. #56
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Read what I posted. READ IT AGAIN.

    I WAS SPEAKING IN THE FUTURE TENSE. I WAS NOT ATTRIBUTING ANY QUOTE TO DAUNTE CULPEPPER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE HAS SAID ABOUT ANYTHING, NOR DO I CARE.

    Funny, as the one who came on this thread telling me to stop acting rude and aggressive, you're the one who has come across as acting rude, aggressive, and mentally wayward.

    Try reading a post and making sure you actually understand it b/f you start ripping the poster's credibility.

    Relax, killer.
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Like Daunte would admit how badly he needed Randy... Actually, I doubt he admitted in part because in his own mind he thought that he could indeed be just as successful without Randy. I don't care if Rich Brooks is calling the plays, you put a quarterback with a strong arm on the field with Randy Moss and Randy Moss is going to make that

    Daunte Culpepper was suffering from the same delusions... "Randy doesn't matter" "I can still be just as good a QB w/o Randy" blah blah blah

    Maybe he's beginning to come back to reality.
    I read your posts as you demanded. I am looking for the "future tense" you describe and this is what I found.
    Perhaps you think that you write one thing, while actually writing something else. That is an example of inarticulation.
    It's quite common on sports boards. I am guilty of it too, from time to time.

  14. #58
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    As to those quotes you highlighted from a previous post: Yes, Daunte said words very similar to that. I only know that b/c I heard a soundbite on ESPN Radio. He said that he and the vikings could be just as good w/o Randy and implied that losing Randy would not be a detriment to their success.

    I don't blame him for saying those things. He's a competitor; any great competitor would say something similar.

    When I spoke of future tense I was referring to post #51 in this thread. I never said Daunte was making excuses for losing; just that he "Can't use those aforementioned situations as excuses for why he cannot lead his team to success." And I wouldn't expect him to.

  15. #59
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    I'd take Carson Palmer RIGHT NOW over Culpepper without blinking an eye. I don't care about career completion percentage. I'l take Palmer. He's better, IMO.
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    You have the right to brag. The Bengals whipped the Vikings. You're simplyexercising a fan's right to brag and boast. I respect that. And I'm simply defending Daunte after two horrible performances, which you should be able to understand.


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