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Thread: Bengals v. Vikings

  1. #31
    Member Sabo Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
    Would the Bengals trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper? They wouldn't trade Carson for Daunte, EVER. Carson is a more accurate passer, and is further along development-wise 3 years in than Daunte is at this point in his career. Not sure how many years he's been in the league.

    And my comment was not directed towards you. It was directed towards the poster who said "if i watched the game" I would have seen so and so. If that's not "analytically wayward," please tell me what is.
    Further along in his development? Culpepper was in the NFC Championship game in his second season. Where was Palmer in his second year? Oh, that's right, at home, so let's toss that argument out with the rest of the garbage. More accurate passer? Culpepper's 2004 completion percentage was just a tad under 70%. What was Palmer's?

    Sorry you took so much offense at my comment about "if you had watched the game." While you obviously did, you must have been too busy celebrating your team's lead to have noticed a few things. The Bengals were constantly getting pressure with four and five man fronts, no extra blitzers needed. They did bring extra from time to time, but ultimately they were just as successful with just the four down-linemen.

    Secondly, look at the success the Vikings had on the ground early. They had several decent runs and then were forced to abandon it when they got down early. Once that happens the defense can sit back and wait for the ball to be thrown downfield, and that's just what they did. Culpepper forced a lot of throws today because they were trailing and he had to do something drastic to get them back in it, hence the five picks. Throw in a porous offensive line and you've got a situation that no QB can succeed in.

    You seem to be continually missing the point I'm trying to make: while trading Randy Moss has had a negative effect on this team, the loss of the offensive coordinator and two lineman has been bigger. Look around the league and you see several teams that don't have a top-5 wideout and who are still successful on offense. Offensive success starts and stops with the offensive line. You don't have that you don't have anything.
    "It's still a long way to the top if we want to rock'n'roll, but at least they dumped the tuba player."
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  3. #32
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray
    Where did Linehan end up?
    He's now the offensive coordinator with the Dolphins.
    "It's still a long way to the top if we want to rock'n'roll, but at least they dumped the tuba player."
    --M2

  4. #33
    C-A-T-S CATS! CATS! CATS! WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Count me in with those who think the Vikings dont miss Randy Moss, and im a Bengals fan.

    If the Vikings still had Moss with the current offensive line, Culpepper still would have been rushed, unless he can play RG or C, I dont see how he helps. To quote a former CincyTalk troll, "Randy Moss is not your savior."

    I've also never been a fan of the Vikings running backs(or any team that uses multiple backs). Seems like when you run out three or four backs you are trying to compensate for not having a single running back that doesnt do everything. But with that said, I do think they miss Onterrio Smith.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
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  5. #34
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo Fan
    Further along in his development? Culpepper was in the NFC Championship game in his second season. Where was Palmer in his second year? Oh, that's right, at home, so let's toss that argument out with the rest of the garbage. More accurate passer? Culpepper's 2004 completion percentage was just a tad under 70%. What was Palmer's?

    Sorry you took so much offense at my comment about "if you had watched the game." While you obviously did, you must have been too busy celebrating your team's lead to have noticed a few things. The Bengals were constantly getting pressure with four and five man fronts, no extra blitzers needed. They did bring extra from time to time, but ultimately they were just as successful with just the four down-linemen.

    Secondly, look at the success the Vikings had on the ground early. They had several decent runs and then were forced to abandon it when they got down early. Once that happens the defense can sit back and wait for the ball to be thrown downfield, and that's just what they did. Culpepper forced a lot of throws today because they were trailing and he had to do something drastic to get them back in it, hence the five picks. Throw in a porous offensive line and you've got a situation that no QB can succeed in.

    You seem to be continually missing the point I'm trying to make: while trading Randy Moss has had a negative effect on this team, the loss of the offensive coordinator and two lineman has been bigger. Look around the league and you see several teams that don't have a top-5 wideout and who are still successful on offense. Offensive success starts and stops with the offensive line. You don't have that you don't have anything.
    Do you know which quarterback in the NFL sustained the TOP QB Rating from November of last season through this weekend?



    Carson Palmer, that's who. Carson Palmer is in his second year and is putting up numbers easily comparable to Daunte Culpepper who is now playing in his SEVENTH. Daunte's career is likely at least already halfway finished. Carson's is just beginning. The Bengals are on the way up. The Vikings?? I'm not going to pronounce them dead yet; LOL, look at their division, you've gotta try REALLY hard not to be in the mix of things.

    Lots can change from week to week, there's no doubt about that.

    However: You're not going to find many people willing to trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper.

    The only QBs I would trade Carson Palmer for are Peyton Manning and Mike Vick. I'm not even sure that Vick would be a better QB for the Bengals... actually, it is doubtful. I still couldn't pass up that excitement.

    Daunte Culpepper? Pass.

    Hmmm... oh, yeah, Culpepper "LED" the Vikings to the NFC Championship game against the NY Giants. LOL, let's hope that that doesn't remain as the highlight of his career.


    Passing
    Daunte Culpepper 13-28 for 78 yards, 3 INT, 0 TD.

    Avg. Yards per pass 1.9

    Fumbles Lost
    Daunte Culpepper, Moe Williams




    Final Score: NY Giants 41 - Minnesota Vikings 0

    The thing is, I'm willing to give the guy a mulligan on that one. He was, after all, only in his second year. Please, however, don't try and make that out to be some sort of glowing endorsement of his QB prowess. After all, he put up a big goose egg with 3 INTs w/ Randy Moss and Cris Carter out there running routes for him. If he had continued to improve after that season, your argument that he's Carson's superior might hold more weight. I have not, however, seen any performances from Daunte Culpepper that suggest he is anything more than a QB with average accuracy and an above-average arm with the ability to throw Randy Moss a bomb.

    Will Carson continue to progress? All signs point to yes; Irregardless: Compare his current abilities with those of Culpepper along with HIS current ceiling and DAUNTE'S ceiling for improvement. It is obvious which QB stands the best chance to improve his game, and, therefore, be more valuable to an NFL team.

    I heard a really interesting quote on Daunte's performances against the Bucs and Bengals... I can't remember the guys name, but he usually comes up with some pretty good stuff.
    "During Daunte's tenure with the Vikes, there would be 2-3 times per game when he would just run around in the backfield and launch the ball downfield where it would be caught by Randy Moss.
    The funny thing is, he's still trying to play that way."

    We disagree. Calling a hail mary to Randy Moss does not constitute brilliant play calling. Losing the O-Linemen hurts, no doubt about it, but that's not the biggest reason the Vikings have been struggling.

    Maybe Daunte will improve, and I hope that he does, but as things stand right now, he appears to have been exposed as a guy who garnered lots of success riding the coattails of Randy Moss.
    Last edited by WMR; 09-19-2005 at 11:05 AM.

  6. #35
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo Fan
    Sorry you took so much offense at my comment about "if you had watched the game."
    LOL, don't worry, you're not going to hurt my feelings. I say come as strong as you want; I just didn't want Betterread to get his feelings hurt at my expense.

  7. #36
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    The only QBs I would trade Carson Palmer for are Peyton Manning and Mike Vick. I'm not even sure that Vick would be a better QB for the Bengals... actually, it is doubtful. I still couldn't pass up that excitement.
    Michael Vick is too much of an injury risk. He got hurt again yesterday. That's not the kind of QB you want in the NFL.

    I would add Ben Roethlisberger to the Peyton Manning list though. It'd be hard to argue that Palmer is better than Big Ben.

  8. #37
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray
    It'd be hard to argue that Palmer is better than Big Ben.
    Not really Not to take anything away from Roethelsberger, but he just doesn't have the tools that Palmer does. I think this is similar to the old Boomer vs. Bernie arguments, and I think for raw QB ability, just like Boomer had the advantage hands down on Bernie, so does Palmer over Roethelsberger. Of course, QB debates ought to begin and end with what we witnessed yesterday, whereby I don't care if you are Dante Culpepper, a bad line will make even the best NFL QBs look like rank amateurs.

    On that note, I was reading on Bengals.com where the Bungles took Akili ahead of Culpepper n the same draft. Yet, watching Dante's play yesterday, he likely would have been just as big a bust if he was forced to develop in a run-for-your life environment like the Bengals would have provided for him during that time.
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  9. #38
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Not really Not to take anything away from Roethelsberger, but he just doesn't have the tools that Palmer does. I think this is similar to the old Boomer vs. Bernie arguments, and I think for raw QB ability, just like Boomer had the advantage hands down on Bernie, so does Palmer over Roethelsberger. Of course, QB debates ought to begin and end with what we witnessed yesterday, whereby I don't care if you are Dante Culpepper, a bad line will make even the best NFL QBs look like rank amateurs.

    On that note, I was reading on Bengals.com where the Bungles took Akili ahead of Culpepper n the same draft. Yet, watching Dante's play yesterday, he likely would have been just as big a bust if he was forced to develop in a run-for-your life environment like the Bengals would have provided for him during that time.
    I've always contended that if Akili had been coddled rather than thrown into the fray, he very well could have developed into a productive NFL quarterback.

    Taking into consideration his abbreviated career at Oregon with a protracted holdout that caused him to miss the majority of his rookie training camp, compounded with his acknowledged difficulty in grasping the system (due as much to the previous 2 probably as anything else) and you've got yourself a recipe for disaster.

    For me, the indelible memory of Akili Smith will be the game he was thrust into action against the Bucs (back when their Defense was probably the best in the NFL) and he got PANCAKED by Warren Sapp. I think that tumultous first season--when he obviously was not prepared to play QB in the NFL--scarred him permanently.



    Look at that picture; all the plays on his arm... poor guy, never stood a chance.

    Not only does Palmer have superior tools; he's more polished as well. There's a reason that Pittsburgh only allows Roethlisberger to throw 10 passes a game, despite the fact that their two best RBs are gone... They are a smash-mouth football team, no doubt, which makes Roethlisberger a perfect match for them. He can do simple things VERY well. He isn't asked to make many difficult plays.

    How would Roethlisberger fare in a QB-Centered/Pass-happy offense? When Pitt. was finally forced to try and make some tough pass plays this past off-season, they struggled.

    No way is he a better/more-skilled QB than Palmer. No way could he run the Bengals offense more effectively than Palmer.

    As to Vick: Injury concerns or not, I take that guy in a heartbeat. He's the most exciting player in football, and, despite his shortcomings, I would take him on my squad any day of the week.

  10. #39
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Palmer vs. Big Ben is a tough one. I love Palmer, but I think Ben's going to have the better career. If I had to pick one, I'd pick Big Ben.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  11. #40
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    Palmer vs. Big Ben is a tough one. I love Palmer, but I think Ben's going to have the better career. If I had to pick one, I'd pick Big Ben.
    Career wise, I was thinking the opposite. I honestly think he's a flash that came into the right situation at just the right time. I don't see the capability to carry a team on his shoulders. Ben seems very workmanlike but will always need a very strong supporting cast, and as WilyMoRocks pointed out, a power oriented, run first offensive scheme to be successful in the NFL. He is not a franchise QB in the sense that the offense will revolve around his play.

    OTH, Palmer is a toolsy QB that can carry a team on his back rather than just be another supporting cast member. I think an appropriate analogy might be Palmer is an executive in training whereas Roethelsberger is a middle manager who came in at that level but will never be promoted past that level, or if he is, to his own peril.
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  12. #41
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    From what I've seen of Ben Roethlisberger, my perception is quite different than yours. I think Ben is absolutely a franchise QB that can be built around. Sure he found a nice situation, but from watching him, he's got it all. He has all the talent in the world and could carry a team on his back if necessary. Playing QB is all about making good decisions quickly and throwing the ball in the right place. Ben has uncanny instincts for someone so young, IMO. He's accurate, got the size, arm strength, he's not too slow. I think he's going to be the best QB in the game within a couple of years and will be a for quite some time. IMO, he's one of the most talented young QBs to come along in a while. But I watched him quite a bit in college so I might have some bias. Even then I thought he was going to be a stud in the NFL. If I would have had the #1 pick in the draft last year, I would have taken him over either Rivers or Manning. I told that to plenty of people and now I'm the one laughing. The guy is a GREAT QB and I think he'd be a great QB in any situation.

    Oh yeah, and I HATE the Steelers. Hate!
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  13. #42
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    If it's Palmer vs. Roethlisberger, I'd take Carson. Big Ben strikes me as very opportunistic and lucky. Now before anyone attacks, let me say that it seems to work very well for him. Take last years Bengals/Squealers game at PBS. Big Ben was sacked 7 times and harrassed all day, but he did just enough to help his team win. Put him on the Browns and I think he is mediocre, at best.

    On another note - I was at the Bengals/Vikings game yesterday and I have to commend Minnesota fans. They aren't obnoxious and crude like Squealers and Browns fans. They aren't snobbish like Cowboys and Dolphins fans. They love their football and were thoroughly happy to be in Cincinnati yesterday having a good time with Bengals fans. A couple high-fived me AFTER the game yesterday, genuinly happy for the Bengals. None of that "You still suck" and "Make the playoffs first then celebrate" junk we see from Pittsburgh fans.

  14. #43
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    From what I've seen of Ben Roethlisberger, my perception is quite different than yours. I think Ben is absolutely a franchise QB that can be built around. Sure he found a nice situation, but from watching him, he's got it all. He has all the talent in the world and could carry a team on his back if necessary. Playing QB is all about making good decisions quickly and throwing the ball in the right place. Ben has uncanny instincts for someone so young, IMO. He's accurate, got the size, arm strength, he's not too slow. I think he's going to be the best QB in the game within a couple of years and will be a for quite some time. IMO, he's one of the most talented young QBs to come along in a while. But I watched him quite a bit in college so I might have some bias. Even then I thought he was going to be a stud in the NFL. If I would have had the #1 pick in the draft last year, I would have taken him over either Rivers or Manning. I told that to plenty of people and now I'm the one laughing. The guy is a GREAT QB and I think he'd be a great QB in any situation.

    Oh yeah, and I HATE the Steelers. Hate!
    I'm biased as well, both hating the Steelers and being a Bengals fan. I am very happy that we have the QB we do and would probably only trade him for Peyton Manning. Regardless, I think both are in the top 10 QBs in the league at this point in their career and will probably both eventually be in the top 5 when they peak.
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Big Ben vs. Carson Palmer:

    6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

    Just on a side, but curious as to other's thoughts:

    For my money Mike Vick is a bottom-tier QB. I think the Falcons would be much, much better off playing a pocket-passer (Matt Schaub hasnt been bad) and utilizing Vick's amazing running attributes as a WR/RB. (Think Matt Jones of JAX, but only superior).

  16. #45
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    Re: Bengals v. Vikings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fil3232

    Just on a side, but curious as to other's thoughts:

    For my money Mike Vick is a bottom-tier QB. I think the Falcons would be much, much better off playing a pocket-passer (Matt Schaub hasnt been bad) and utilizing Vick's amazing running attributes as a WR/RB. (Think Matt Jones of JAX, but only superior).
    I don't know. I think Vick is pretty good and will just get better. He's certainly not the traditional QB, but his W/L record is exceptional. They'd be lucky to win 8 games with Shaub.
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