Woah. She cheer for the panthers?Originally Posted by SteelSD
Yes
No
Woah. She cheer for the panthers?
4009
Everything I posted was factual. I made no personal attacks on players or posters. You seem unable to enforce rules objectively without bias. And you're a "moderator".....that's interesting...........
See below.
5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.
All models are wrong. Some of them are useful.
Ortiz had highest ERA of his career last year (of years with 100+ innings, 5 of those previous to last year).
Milton had BY FAR worst year as a pro last year - almost 2 FULL RUNS above his ERAs of previous years.
Lidle fully capable of sub-5.00 ERAs but he notches 5.32 with Reds second worst of career
I succinctly demonstrate in my post just below yours that Lidle, Ortiz, Milton clearly did have relatively bad years with the Reds. There is nothing inflammatory about that. It is all fact.
Perhaps you should re-read the thread title.
All models are wrong. Some of them are useful.
They are bad pitchers. The scale of their badness could be discussed I suppose. Seems kind of pointless to me though.
What was your point again?
4009
I'm pretty sure NOBODY would argue that Reds have anything close to strong pitching.
However, one point I am making is that whereas successful Reds teams of the mid-70s took 2nd/3rd tier "type" pitchers and got in most cases ABOVE PAR performances from them (relative to their careers). Our present day reds bring in 2nd/3rd tier "type" pitchers (particularly "starters") and routinely see them UNDER PERFORM. Three key off season acquisitions of the last 2 years Lidle, Milton, Ortiz are all examples of this.
And yes "paintmered" it relates to the question of whether to move fences back. Getting better pitching "performances" is the ultimate goal. If better "pitchers" can't be obtained as things are, well trying to make the park a bit more attractive to free agent pitchers might not hurt in helping to obtain them or perhaps help the performances of the ones already here...............
And that has to do with the BRM's pitching staff how?
All models are wrong. Some of them are useful.
In 2003, Ortiz posted a 5.20 ERA versus the league average of 4.26. In 2004, his ERA as a Starter was around 5.40. In 2005, his ERA of 5.36 was actually BETTER versus the NL average than his 2003 ERA was versus the AL average.
Ortiz was plenty bad before he came to the Reds and was equally as bad when he got here. You obviously don't understand how to properly contextualize things. If you did, we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.
Yeah, he also came in with a degenerative knee that will never heal while being one of the most extreme fly ball and HR pitchers in the game. You buy damaged goods that are below-average when they're healthy AND put them in a park not conducive to their propensities and you're just asking for Eric Milton's 2005 season.Milton had BY FAR worst year as a pro last year - almost 2 FULL RUNS above his ERAs of previous years.
Had a whole season of 5.75 ERA ball the season before that and "bounced back" in 2005 to post exactly league average ERA numbers and below-average (the bad way) OPS Against numbers. Below average before the Reds got him. Below average when he was with the Reds. Below average after he left. Color me unimpressed.Lidle fully capable of sub-5.00 ERAs but he notches 5.32 with Reds second worst of career
Still waiting for you to tell us about all these great pitchers who joined the Reds over the past couple seasons who then suddenly and inexpicably tanked. So far all you've done is given us a list of pitchers (including Wilson whom you're now ignoring) who were bad before the Reds got their hands on them and who were then bad for the Reds.
"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer
"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams
The problem is your reason for them under performing. You mentioned "team leadership". I have a hard time seeing that. Before this year, we had both Sean Casey and Barry Larkin. That is a pretty good leadership for a team. But, they still had horrible pitching. But maybe that doesn't help you and your crusade to blame all of the teams problems on Dunn, etc.
Your original post had more to do with blaming position players for the pitching than the pitchers themselves. That's a difficult argument, and I hope you can give a better answer, because so far it is completely lacking, IMO.
I must be missing something. I assume that your position that "better pitchers can't be obtained" is due to the financial constraints of the team. If so, then who in blue blazes shall be responsible for the ridiculously costly refitting costs that you would recommend in order to "make the park a bit more attractive to free agent pitchers?"
My guess is that the citizens of Hamilton County just shot milk out of their collective noses, so that leaves....uhm...THE TEAM! Brilliant.
If the team had that kind of cabbage lying around, why then, wouldn't they use it to acquire pitching that could pitch in basically any type of environment? By the way, last time I checked, the Reds still play 81 games per year in parks not customized to suit our dreadful staff.
Last edited by Blimpie; 11-10-2005 at 01:51 PM.
Your argument requires that people agree with your premise. The one or two 'bad' pitchers on the BRM are not even close to the ineptitude that is the current Reds pitching situation. The Reds have 1 starter that *may* have made the rotation for the BRM. Even at that he would have been at best the 5th starter.
Milton has a degenerative knee. Using his performances from previous seasons is disingenuous.
Ortiz is on the downslope of his career. Using his statistics from '04 to say he pitched worse for the Reds, when his '03 and'04 numbers as a starter were just as bad, is disingenuous.
Saying Lidle has performed in other places requires a person to jump back to '02 when he was with the A's. Saying he pitched worse with the Reds than with the Blue Jays, and to some degree the Phillies (more than 10hits/9innings for the Jays, Reds and Phillies aside from the 10 games there at the end of '04) is disingenuous.
So again, the appearance here is that you made some off the cuff comments about the BRM that you thought were valid. These comments have been proven, through objective measures to be invalid, yet you continue to belabor the point, changing the target as your original premises are refuted.
4009
laughable ...... making any point to some of you that doesn't include what you all "believe" to be gospel is a waste of energy.
And then for some of you to make the leap about my point being "disingenuous" is ridiculous. Look in the mirror on that - some of the most "not candid; insincere, calculating" folks I've ever run into I've encountered on this board.
Facts are facts. I have my theories just like you. Just because you don't agree doesn't make them disingenuous or wrong.
It's not a crime by the way to just not post in thread. If you don't like discussing my theory why don't you let it be. Maybe someone else will or it will just get old and drift to the bottom.
What exactly is you point again?
4009
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