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Thread: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

  1. #16
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    I am curious to know what level of expertise you people have accomplished in your own career...I mean you all look at the sports page, the roster and the systems of other teams and then you say "This is what we should do to make this team great"...which is fine in the fantasy league you guys play in...but the dyynamics of actually doing something are a lot different than fantasy leagues because there is another skilled group or individual who doesn't want Danny Graves or Paul Wislon.

    Signing Wilson to a longterm deal was a bad move...no doubt. I'll say it again he signed Wilson to pacify the fans the same way the Pants did Haynes after his one good year here....BAD MOVE...but again, the fans and media were so far on his side on some levels it is beter to do that than to rock the boat...when you are a leader you have to pick your battles.

    I am disapointed that DanO has not moved Milton yet...moving Casey is a pipe dream...we'll have him through his contract or we'll deal him at the deadline.

    As for why he did not deal Graves? It's pretty obvious that until he fell off the wagon he was lights out...then his decline was RAPID...who would take him? What would we have gotten for him? Would any of you have been happy with that return? (Oh yeah, because we would have got something!)

    This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn...he is the "all in chip" we have to play to get the arms help we need on the MLB ready level.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

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  3. #17
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    I am curious to know what level of expertise you people have accomplished in your own career.
    I think you'll find quite a few highly education people, and more that are well respected in their chosen professions. I'd image you find at least a handful that have published work. (A couple of the fellas had one of their baseball articles published a few seasons ago, imagine that.) I also venture to guess that you'd find quite a few people here that run their own business, or side-business.

    I also think you'd find quite a few people that hire, fire, and "trade" employees as a part of their profession.

    ...but the dyynamics of actually doing something are a lot different than fantasy leagues because there is another skilled group or individual who doesn't want Danny Graves or Paul Wislon.
    Which is why we are continually griping about the Front office both past and present. Those among the skilled don't want a Graves or Wilson, yet somehow, we overpay for both of them?

    Signing Wilson to a longterm deal was a bad move...no doubt. I'll say it again he signed Wilson to pacify the fans the same way the Pants did Haynes after his one good year here....BAD MOVE...but again, the fans and media were so far on his side on some levels it is beter to do that than to rock the boat... when you are a leader you have to pick your battles.
    If you are a leader, you lead. If you are making moves to placate the masses you are not leading, you are following.

    I am disapointed that DanO has not moved Milton yet...moving Casey is a pipe dream...we'll have him through his contract or we'll deal him at the deadline.
    Two more overpaid players ... see a pattern yet?

    As for why he did not deal Graves? It's pretty obvious that until he fell off the wagon he was lights out...then his decline was RAPID...who would take him? What would we have gotten for him? Would any of you have been happy with that return? (Oh yeah, because we would have got something!)
    Many of us would have traded him at the All-Star break the year before, check the search function. A leader would have traded him while he was overperforming and took the heat, knowing he would be better off in the future.

    This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn...he is the "all in chip" we have to play to get the arms help we need on the MLB ready level.
    This team is definetely in that bad of shape. We need to replace most of our pitching staff to have a realistic opportunity for playoff contention.

    We have a very nice offense. That side of the house is in order. The issues we have is that we have absolutely putrid pitching and are pretty ugly defensively as well.

    I have no issues trading Dunn, provided the return is pitching, and its spectacular. Given that DanO didn't unload Graves, signed Milton, Ortiz, and Wilson ... do you expect him to get a spectacular haul by trading Dunn?

    I know sure don't.

    GL
    Last edited by gonelong; 11-20-2005 at 03:04 PM.

  4. #18
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    I have no issues trading Dunn, provided the return is pitching, and its spectacular. Given that DanO didn't unload Graves, signed Milton, Ortiz, and Wilson ... do you expect him to get a spectacular haul by trading Dunn?

    I know sure don't.

    GL

    You can say that again.

    There's no way I trust O'Brien to make a deal involvoing Dunn.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  5. #19
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    GL:

    Congrats to the couple who had articles published...run a business...hire and fire people...it's one thing to be in that position and still another to be effective at it.

    I'm wondering if these professionals make it too their equal of the playoffs each year? Are they growing their business? Are they closing 60% or more of their opportunities? How bout articles? How many have been published? Enough to make a decent living?

    My point being I doubt many if any would be able to stand up to the same critique of their career that DanO endures from this group.

    Something to think on..

    Your perception of leadership is WAY OFF...leaders do not lead by simply ignoring the voices of those around them...Read some of the books put out by Maxwell, Covey or many others...there is a bigger picture to leadership...sometimes you "go your way"...sometimes you "go the way of the masses" so you can continue to strengthen your position so they will follow you when they are needed.

    I still think we are on the road to improvement with DanO...especially over what we have had to work with in the organization...this was not an overnight task he took on and for anyone to think this team was going to make a run at the playoffs last year and maybe next year is just out of their mind...the way this organization will thrive is to go OLD SCHOOL...develop their own talent and not be infatuated by FA's.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Are we gonna have a thread about "leadership". I hear this crap every day at work and all cliches and "action plans" and acronyms that stand for cute things you want to get done.

    The only thing that matters is positive results. DanO has had hardly any.

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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    From what I'm told, Dan O'Brien did everything he could after the deadline to revive the trade, but Texas cooled on trading Kinsler. They offered other combinations of prospects (including Drew Meyer) but Dan O'Brien didn't like the offers I guess. According to my buddy, who worked for DanO briefly, DanO would have never signed Paul Wilson long term had he known that ownership was going to give him extra dough in December to add pitching. He thought that resigning Wilson was the only move he had budget for.

  8. #22
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    My point being I doubt many if any would be able to stand up to the same critique of their career that DanO endures from this group.
    That's not a "point", it's a red herring. And a really nasty one at that.

    What anyone else on this board does for a living or how good they are at doing it has NOTHING to do with Dan O'Brien. You've been a constant apologist for his buffoonery and now you're trying to insinuate that folks here aren't qualified to discuss the job Dan O'Brien has done.

    Well, no one but YOU is "qualified" to discuss Dan O'Brien it seems. Yet you can't point to anything positive the guy has actually done. Instead, you're entire line of support amounts to nothing but a truckload of excuses for what he's done wrong.

    Excuses are not evidence of success.

    Your perception of leadership is WAY OFF...leaders do not lead by simply ignoring the voices of those around them...Read some of the books put out by Maxwell, Covey or many others...there is a bigger picture to leadership...sometimes you "go your way"...sometimes you "go the way of the masses" so you can continue to strengthen your position so they will follow you when they are needed.
    Actually, I'll trust gonelong's take on leadership well before I trust yours as he's the guy who actually understands the dynamics involved with doing dumb things just because they're allegedly popular.

    Your perception of a leader is that he can be excused for doing dumb things that hurt his organization so long as those dumb things placate the masses. But that's a ludicrous path to follow because if you do enough dumb things, pretty soon the masses are going to be furious because you'll have run your organization into the ground in your effort to make folks happy.

    That's not "leadership". It's organizational suicide.

    Baseball fans want a winning organization. That's the brass ring- not Paul-freakin'-Wilson. A leader is able to determine what the real goal is and understands that superficial mob pacification is not a means to achieve that goal.

    Are they closing 60% or more of their opportunities?
    If you have a product that someone has told you they want and they have exactly what they need to pay for it, you'd better be closing 100% of those deals. If you can't, you're nothing but a low-level order taker.

    I still think we are on the road to improvement with DanO...
    If there were actually a "road to improvement" I wouldn't expect O'Brien to be driving on it because he's just spent two seasons repeatedly slamming his car into the rear interior of his garage.

    Pretty tough to get yourself on a road if you don't know the difference between "drive" and "reverse".
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  9. #23
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    I am curious to know what level of expertise you people have accomplished in your own career
    I've achieved level of expertise enough that if I performed the way DanO has the past two years, I'd expect to be fired.

    I certainly wouldn't accept his level of performance from an employee for very long ... and, yes, I'm management.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    I'll say it again he signed Wilson to pacify the fans the same way the Pants did Haynes after his one good year here....BAD MOVE...but again, the fans and media were so far on his side on some levels it is beter to do that than to rock the boat...when you are a leader you have to pick your battles.
    And I'll say it again, kowtowing to what you think public perception might be is the opposite of leadership. Repeating the glaring mistakes of your predecessor, and I may have worn out my keyboard typing the name "Jimmy Haynes" leading up to the Wilson signing, is plain amateurish. If DanO didn't have the fortitude to cause a minor ripple by allowing a not-so-good, on-the-brink-of-a-career-ending-injury pitcher walk, then he's not the person I'd want running my club.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn
    Now wait a second. The team is all right, but Dunn's the only guy of value? Either the team is a disaster and Dunn's the only horse in town or the Reds have some talent on hand, making it possible to move players other than Dunn if the team so chooses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    which is fine in the fantasy league you guys play in
    I'm flippin' tired of luddite "fantasy baseball" cracks. For the record, I've never played fantasy baseball in my entire life. Yet even if I had, so bloody what? What especially frosts my windows with that crack is it almost always comes from people who've spent their time on this board either suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome or offering up very little in the way of quality and it's directed at the folks who have consistently made astute and accurate observations regarding the Reds and baseball in general.

    How about this MartyFan? These "fantasy baseball" folks have consistently skewered where the team is headed and how the team's moves will pan out. You think you can do better? I sincerely doubt it. Prove me wrong.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  10. #24
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by dougflynn23
    From what I'm told, Dan O'Brien did everything he could after the deadline to revive the trade, but Texas cooled on trading Kinsler.
    Then the Reds need to find a GM who can do more.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  11. #25
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Then the Reds need to find a GM who can do more.
    That is certainly a fair assessment.

  12. #26
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I'm flippin' tired of luddite "fantasy baseball" cracks. For the record, I've never played fantasy baseball in my entire life. Yet even if I had, so bloody what? What especially frosts my windows with that crack is it almost always comes from people who've spent their time on this board either suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome or offering up very little in the way of quality and it's directed at the folks who have consistently made astute and accurate observations regarding the Reds and baseball in general.

    How about this MartyFan? These "fantasy baseball" folks have consistently skewered where the team is headed and how the team's moves will pan out. You think you can do better? I sincerely doubt it. Prove me wrong.

    Can I get an "Amen" from the choir?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  13. #27
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    run a business...hire and fire people.
    Done it, sold it made a profit.

    In your eyes that good enough to judge a baseball teams managment on an online site?

    BTW prior to "Fantasy Ball" such judgement on players and management knew no bounds, go check out some of the yellow press on Candy Cummings when he played for the Reds 130 years ago... brutal just brutal.

    Hardly a shock that people talk about ideas versus the ones made, and hardly a shock that they get attacked for it.

    Ironic as hell though.
    Last edited by westofyou; 11-20-2005 at 09:56 PM.

  14. #28
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    M2 and Steel...Booo...Flippin Whoo!

    If you have a product that someone has told you they want and they have exactly what they need to pay for it, you'd better be closing 100% of those deals. If you can't, you're nothing but a low-level order taker.
    A home run every time, huh? Wow almost like Barry Bonds...doesn't he dope up? (allegedly)

    Actually in sales, those would be called "Laydowns" and they only happen when someone is emotionally charged, not thinking for their best interests.

    I'm flippin' tired of luddite "fantasy baseball" cracks. For the record, I've never played fantasy baseball in my entire life. Yet even if I had, so bloody what?
    Umm...wow...I never thought of it that way...I guess you're right.....NOPE! By the way, extra points for using the word "luddite" in a sentence...well done! So what do I stand against, technological improvement or systems that I believe will undercut the value of a person? I actually don't think fantasy baseball does either.

    How about this MartyFan? These "fantasy baseball" folks have consistently skewered where the team is headed and how the team's moves will pan out. You think you can do better? I sincerely doubt it. Prove me wrong.
    Nope, I don't...I have a fulltime career where I don't have the time or energy to become an expert to debate every move made by an organization in a profession that I have limited information.

    I just don't feel qualified to second guess what the actual players are doing.

    Quote:
    run a business...hire and fire people.

    Done it, sold it made a profit.
    Me too...a couple of times and if the i's and t's get put in their proper place I'll do it again within the next few months.

    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  15. #29
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Hey Wheels, since you seem to know *everything* can you tell me where my GBV Bee Thousand CD is?
    Wellll...

    Maybe if you woulda bought it on vinyl, you wouldn'ta lost it.:
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  16. #30
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by dougflynn23
    From what I'm told, Dan O'Brien did everything he could after the deadline to revive the trade, but Texas cooled on trading Kinsler. They offered other combinations of prospects (including Drew Meyer) but Dan O'Brien didn't like the offers I guess. According to my buddy, who worked for DanO briefly, DanO would have never signed Paul Wilson long term had he known that ownership was going to give him extra dough in December to add pitching. He thought that resigning Wilson was the only move he had budget for.
    I just want to make it clear that I totally appreciate you having posted your inside dope.

    I hope you don't think I was "killing the messenger" or anything.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn


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