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Thread: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

  1. #31
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    I still want to know who you all think Graves should have been traded to, and for who?

    The SABRE guys on this site wanted Jimenez back, while many of the non SABRE guys wanted him kicked to the curb. That turned out really well. Now I see a few of those same people talking about how dumb DanO is. Yet Jimenez was easily money spent more foolishly than any other move, last year.
    Last edited by LoganBuck; 11-20-2005 at 10:01 PM.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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  3. #32
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    I have a fulltime career where I don't have the time or energy to become an expert to debate every move made by an organization in a profession that I have limited information.

    I just don't feel qualified to second guess what the actual players are doing.
    Then how about zipping your yap? Because if you're not qualified to judge the actual moves and direction of the Reds, which you can see played out in front of you, then you sure as hell aren't qualified to comment on the ability or insight of the people on this board.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  4. #33
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Then how about zipping your yap? Because if you're not qualified to judge the actual moves and direction of the Reds, which you can see played out in front of you, then you sure as hell aren't qualified to comment on the ability or insight of the people on this board.

    Easy, killer.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion around here.
    What if this wasn't a rhetorical question?

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  5. #34
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by paintmered
    Easy, killer.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion around here.
    I agree. What I'm a little beyond peeved about is the insistence that people aren't entitled to their opinion. You know, that all these fantasy leaguers who've never watched a baseball game or held down a position of responsibility ought to grin and bear DanO because they can't know any better.

    I'm all for hearing a spirited defense of DanO that involves a presentation of what he's done right, but when someone launches the DanO's-good-because-you-people-suck defense, I take some exception. If there's one thing Redszone has taught me it's that there's a lot of bright people out there who know better than the Reds have for what's become years on end at this point.
    Last edited by M2; 11-20-2005 at 10:53 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  6. #35
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Then how about zipping your yap? Because if you're not qualified to judge the actual moves and direction of the Reds, which you can see played out in front of you, then you sure as hell aren't qualified to comment on the ability or insight of the people on this board.
    The actual moves I am capable of judgeing...it's the moves that were not made, might have been made, should have been made, could have been made that are complete fiction and the ones that are most of the time pointed too as the path to freedom for this team.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  7. #36
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    Actually in sales, those would be called "Laydowns" and they only happen when someone is emotionally charged, not thinking for their best interests.
    Well, no. You're mistaking "laydowns" with "impulse purchases". They are not synonymous. Laydowns may be "impulse purchases", but they may also be purchases driven by the consumer's predetermined rational need to the product being offered. Your confusion stems from an underlying erroneous supposition that "want" equals "need".

    You've already made a number of missteps in this thread. Don't make another one by thinking of me as anything other than expert level in the practical application of sales theory, sales management, contract negotiation, and advanced sales training at an organizational level. Even if that topic belonged on a baseball board (it doesn't), you'd do well to avoid it altogether because the results would not be to your liking.

    That's the main problem with your entire premise- which virtually requires others to submit a pseudo-resume to you in order to discuss a General Manager's performance.

    The irony is that people you assume are unqualified to do discuss our GM are the same people that have, as M2 noted, skewered every move he's made while you've been doing nothing but trying to excuse away the reasons for his failures. In short, the very people you're attempting to indicate as unqualified are the same people who've been consistently right while you've been consistently wrong.

    Knowing that, why would anyone else have to possibly "prove themselves" to YOU???
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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  8. #37
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    One other thing....M2

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartyFan
    This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn

    Now wait a second. The team is all right, but Dunn's the only guy of value? Either the team is a disaster and Dunn's the only horse in town or the Reds have some talent on hand, making it possible to move players other than Dunn if the team so chooses.
    Nope...because the team as a group could still produce enough runs to win if Dunn was moved...again, I'll say this is just from casual observation...Does anybody think there is another player who could be moved by themseleves to bring back a quality starter?
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  9. #38
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    One other thing....M2



    Nope...because the team as a group could still produce enough runs to win if Dunn was moved...again, I'll say this is just from casual observation...Does anybody think there is another player who could be moved by themseleves to bring back a quality starter?
    Why do you care?

    It's all just fiction for our fantasy teams, right?
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  10. #39
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck
    I still want to know who you all think Graves should have been traded to, and for who?
    To anyone for anything of value. Comparable pitchers have changed hands before

    The SABRE guys on this site wanted Jimenez back, while many of the non SABRE guys wanted him kicked to the curb. That turned out really well. Now I see a few of those same people talking about how dumb DanO is. Yet Jimenez was easily money spent more foolishly than any other move, last year.
    I wanted Jimenez back. I hold, to this day, that the money was well-spent. Jimenez had just come off his best full season and was entering his age-prime years meaning that the Reds had a good chance of seeing the guy's peak seasons shortly.

    That didn't work out because of clubhouse issues. But then, Miley apparently couldn't manage a clubhouse and allowed his sheep to herd him into telling O'Brien to DFA Jimenez.

    Your dog won't hunt.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  11. #40
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Well, no. You're mistaking "laydowns" with "impulse purchases". They are not synonymous. Laydowns may be "impulse purchases", but they may also be purchases driven by the consumer's predetermined rational need to the product being offered. Your confusion stems from an underlying erroneous supposition that "want" equals "need".

    You've already made a number of missteps in this thread. Don't make another one by thinking of me as anything other than expert level in the practical application of sales theory, sales management, contract negotiation, and advanced sales training at an organizational level. Even if that topic belonged on a baseball board (it doesn't), you'd do well to avoid it altogether because the results would not be to your liking.

    That's the main problem with your entire premise- which virtually requires others to submit a pseudo-resume to you in order to discuss a General Manager's performance.

    The irony is that people you assume are unqualified to do discuss our GM are the same people that have, as M2 noted, skewered every move he's made while you've been doing nothing but trying to excuse away the reasons for his failures. In short, the very people you're attempting to indicate as unqualified are the same people who've been consistently right while you've been consistently wrong.

    Knowing that, why would anyone else have to possibly "prove themselves" to YOU???
    Actually...no, I fully understand what a "laydown" is and what "impulse" is...

    IMPULSE...see it. want it. buy it.

    LAYDOWN...uninformed. persuaded by controled information. buys it.

    Sure, that is a simple way to say it but...obviously I am a simple guy.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  12. #41
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    Nope...because the team as a group could still produce enough runs to win if Dunn was moved...again, I'll say this is just from casual observation...Does anybody think there is another player who could be moved by themseleves to bring back a quality starter?
    Jose Guillen got the team Aaron Harang, so yes, I absolutely think that if a GM with an eye for talent were at the helm, the Reds could pluck numerous quality arms for players other than Dunn.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  13. #42
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    Why do you care?

    It's all just fiction for our fantasy teams, right?
    You're right...no, no, you're not...It's not that I don't care...it's that I can't care...thanks
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  14. #43
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    The actual moves I am capable of judgeing...it's the moves that were not made, might have been made, should have been made, could have been made that are complete fiction and the ones that are most of the time pointed too as the path to freedom for this team.
    Well, seeing that the moves that have been made clearly have NOT pointed the team on the road to deliverance then by definition a different set of moves would have been required to do the job.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  15. #44
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    You're right...no, no, you're not...It's not that I don't care...it's that I can't care...thanks
    And yet here you are posting about it again and again.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  16. #45
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    IMPULSE...see it. want it. buy it.
    Yes.

    LAYDOWN...uninformed. persuaded by controled information. buys it.
    No. My wife and I did a great deal of independent research before purchasing our last car, walked into the showroom, let the salesperson tell us nothing we didn't already know about a new automobile we already knew we were going to purchase, and we drove away with it.

    The salesperson might as well have been a checkout clerk. And we were very informed, required no education, value build, or need creation, and we were the technical definition of a "laydown" sale. But I didn't tell the salesperson that. He was a nice guy so I left him with the illusion that his presence actually added value to the transaction.

    A "laydown" does not require either the creation of need or consumer education. In fact, a sale created by the use of persuasive technique is not, by definition, a "laydown".

    How does all this apply to baseball? Well, it appears that O'Brien has the skill set of a checkout clerk but needs the skill set possessed by successful professional salespeople instead. O'Brien needs to make things happen instead of expecting us to excuse away that which he allows to happen to him. It almost makes me physically ill that Dan O'Brien could not move a commodity another team wanted after said team agreed on the price they would pay. It's inexcusable that a deal could not get done in that scenario and really should be the final indictment of the man's skill level. Considering his position requires high level negotiation and persuasion skill sets, there isn't an excuse in the world that will insulate him.

    So far, all we've been able to figure out is that Dan O'Brien lacks the ability to negotiate a deal, can't persuade a team that wants something he has to take it, in addition to lacking the ability to identify projectible impact talent and properly identify and evaluate risk.

    And that's a guy you're defending why?
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams


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