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Thread: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

  1. #46
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    We're talking about Danny Graves in 2004, for those who keep saying no one wanted him. He was in the All-Star game and led the world in saves. If you aren't capable of trading an All-Star closer leading the league in saves (yes, I'm aware of the blown saves), then you have no business in the baseball business to begin with, let alone as a General Manager.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

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  3. #47
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    GL:
    My point being I doubt many if any would be able to stand up to the same critique of their career that DanO endures from this group.
    If my performance was at O'Brien's level I'd resign out of sheer embarassment.

    Your perception of leadership is WAY OFF...leaders do not lead by simply ignoring the voices of those around them...Read some of the books put out by Maxwell, Covey or many others...there is a bigger picture to leadership...sometimes you "go your way"...sometimes you "go the way of the masses" so you can continue to strengthen your position so they will follow you when they are needed.
    Well, your certainly entitled to your opinion, but given your track record I'll take it for what its worth.

    While I could agree, in theory, that placating the masses will allow a person time to work a plan to gain additional footing, putting the Dano/Wilson play into that light is ridiculous IMO. Dano had no need to make that move for any reason.

    I still think we are on the road to improvement with DanO...especially over what we have had to work with in the organization...this was not an overnight task he took on and for anyone to think this team was going to make a run at the playoffs last year and maybe next year is just out of their mind...the way this organization will thrive is to go OLD SCHOOL...develop their own talent and not be infatuated by FA's.
    We are not on the road to improvement at this point. That will prove itself out quite plainly over time.

    The Reds are as OLD SCHOOL as the come, and if starting pitching was film, they still couldn't it developed at a Moto Photo.

    GL
    Last edited by gonelong; 11-21-2005 at 01:29 AM.

  4. #48
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by dougflynn23
    During the entire month of July, 2004, Dan O'Brien and John Hart spoke almost daily about a trade that would send Paul Wilson to Texas. On July 26th, a tentative trade was made that would send Paul Wilson and P Todd Jones to Texas in exchange for SS Ian Kinsler and P Erik Thompson. .
    I guess my question is: Why didn't DanO try to find some kind of substitute for Todd Jones after Larry Walker refused the trade?
    That's one of my biggest criticisms with DanO, he can not think on his feet.
    It probably took him a month to set up that trade you mentioned, and then DanO was totally unable to react to a change of events.

    But thanks for posting the insider info, that was an interesting read.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  5. #49
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by dougflynn23
    He thought that resigning Wilson was the only move he had budget for.
    Here's something I always wondered about. Is it easier to find "budget" to sign popular veterans like Wilson (and even Haynes, Casey, and Graves) than it is to sign a new incoming player.

    It appears (obviously no proof) that Allen approves those moves a lot easier as opposed to letting the vet walk and giving the GM the equivalent money to bring in a new guy from another team.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #50
    Hardscrabble wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    Here's something I always wondered about. Is it easier to find "budget" to sign popular veterans like Wilson (and even Haynes, Casey, and Graves) than it is to sign a new incoming player.

    It appears (obviously no proof) that Allen approves those moves a lot easier as opposed to letting the vet walk and giving the GM the equivalent money to bring in a new guy from another team.
    I'd bet you anything that a simple onceover and an MRI from another club would have made it not only the easiest of signingsfor the Reds, but it would have been impossible for Paul to play somewhere else. All they'd have to do is take one look at that shoulder.

    And DanO paid too much for it.

    And Allen approved it.

    The drug bus is being piloted by stoned, retarded monkees.
    Pray for Rain.

  7. #51
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Okay..her it is.

    A couple of people have let me know that while I am entitled to my opinion I could have presented my thoughts in a more friendly way.

    For that I am sorry...the rest of it still stands.

    Here is what I was trying to accomplish with my posts.

    I really doubt that many if any of you, or us would be able to live up to the scrutiny that DanO is under on this board in our chosen career...it is MHO that DanO is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

    Also, I have supported DanO from day 1...eventhough I wanted Krivsky...I'd still lve to have Krivsky....I was shocked and disapointed when Milton and Ortiz were not moved at the deadline...both could go to teams with larger parks and trhive...Ortiz was a huge gamble becuse he has always been lights out or lit up...this year...he was lit up.

    I never liked the signing of Paul Wilson then again I didn't like the contract with Casey, Graves or Larkin either.

    All of that aside, I am sorry for "being mean"...but I also think some of you are pretty ruthless too.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  8. #52
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    Okay..her it is.

    A couple of people have let me know that while I am entitled to my opinion I could have presented my thoughts in a more friendly way.

    For that I am sorry...the rest of it still stands.

    Here is what I was trying to accomplish with my posts.

    I really doubt that many if any of you, or us would be able to live up to the scrutiny that DanO is under on this board in our chosen career...it is MHO that DanO is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

    Also, I have supported DanO from day 1...eventhough I wanted Krivsky...I'd still lve to have Krivsky....I was shocked and disapointed when Milton and Ortiz were not moved at the deadline...both could go to teams with larger parks and trhive...Ortiz was a huge gamble becuse he has always been lights out or lit up...this year...he was lit up.

    I never liked the signing of Paul Wilson then again I didn't like the contract with Casey, Graves or Larkin either.

    All of that aside, I am sorry for "being mean"...but I also think some of you are pretty ruthless too.
    If you put it that way without the "fantasy baseball" snark and the intimation that the people on this board must not have accomplished much in the professional world (something that, in my years of experience here, couldn't be more wrong), then you'd have gotten a far less ruthless response from me.

    I still don't agree with your premise. My profession gets constant scrutiny, both internal and external. I'm aware of that and have no beef with it, but you can be certain that I know that means I don't get to suffer any grandiose failures as a result. One Eric Milton and I'm gone. I'm not holding DanO to any standard that I wouldn't apply to myself.

    He's got a job with high public visibility. Scrutiny comes with that. If he didn't want the spotlight then he should have stayed in middle management. We get to see what he does and, even more to the point, the results of what he does. His results stink and far too many people could have told you that would be the case before the games played themselves out. I have little sympathy for a guy making such obvious mistakes.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. #53
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    I have little sympathy for a guy making such obvious mistakes
    Especially since Dan O is a legacy player in the game, it doesn't diminish his work career, but it helps to have a father who was once one of twenty four. IMO that sets the bar a bit higher.

    Thing is both father and son cut their throats several times on pitching and worked with odd ownership.

    However Daddy scored Feguson Jenkins for Bill Madlock, Dan O has to pull something like that just to get up to Daddy's level.

  10. #54
    Hardscrabble wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    It's entertainment.

    People have every right to critique it.

    Don't get on stage if you don't expect someone to comment on it.
    Pray for Rain.

  11. #55
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    It's entertainment.

    People have every right to critique it.

    Don't get on stage if you don't expect someone to comment on it.
    My sentiments exactly.

    Baseball is an entertainment business. Some people are entertained by the product on the field, others are entertained by what goes on behind the scenes. Being a MLB GM is a highly visible position and the number second-guessers is enormous.

    Having said that, I haven't heard DanO complain at all about the press or the public criticisms.

    Pay attention to the open sky

  12. #56
    Hardscrabble wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker
    My sentiments exactly.

    Baseball is an entertainment business. Some people are entertained by the product on the field, others are entertained by what goes on behind the scenes. Being a MLB GM is a highly visible position and the number second-guessers is enormous.

    Having said that, I haven't heard DanO complain at all about the press or the public criticisms.
    To his credit, he hasn't.

    Then again, I'm not sure how many media members in Cincinnati actually openly question his moves.

    Heck, they're too busy wondering wether or not EE is the answer at third, with one ear attached to a radio speaker every wednesday wondering what Marty thinks about it.

    As far as national media is concerned, I wonder if DanO pays any attention to that at all.
    Pray for Rain.

  13. #57
    Pagan/Asatru Ravenlord's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    I wanted Jimenez back. I hold, to this day, that the money was well-spent. Jimenez had just come off his best full season and was entering his age-prime years meaning that the Reds had a good chance of seeing the guy's peak seasons shortly.

    That didn't work out because of clubhouse issues. But then, Miley apparently couldn't manage a clubhouse and allowed his sheep to herd him into telling O'Brien to DFA Jimenez.

    Your dog won't hunt.
    FWIW, Jimenez had just hit 270/357/405 in May when he got DFA'd.
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  14. #58
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    I really doubt that many if any of you, or us would be able to live up to the scrutiny that DanO is under on this board in our chosen career...it is MHO that DanO is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
    For that last opinion to be accurate, Dan O'Brien would need to be bashed mercilessly for bringing in a real positive impact player to the Reds.

    The problem with Dan O'Brien is that he DOESN'T "do". Anything remotely resembling a success at the MLB level has been at the fringe level. When he's attempted to bring in a true positive impact guy, he's just plain stunk at it. You're simply not going to win anything by wasting money on the likes of Ortiz, Milton, Lidle, Randa, etc. etc. in the hopes that you'll significantly impact your club by swapping them at the trade deadline.

    Also, I have supported DanO from day 1...eventhough I wanted Krivsky...I'd still lve to have Krivsky....I was shocked and disapointed when Milton and Ortiz were not moved at the deadline...both could go to teams with larger parks and trhive...Ortiz was a huge gamble becuse he has always been lights out or lit up...this year...he was lit up.
    Ok, first, Ortiz has stunk as a starter for quite a while. He's never been "lights out". Ever. Secondly, Eric Milton put up a .920 OPS Against at the GAB in 2005. On the road, he managed a .864 OPSA. He was awful anywhere. It's not surprising that teams wouldn't want an awful pitcher still owed over 18M bucks at the trade deadline.

    You're acting as if the only thing wrong with those guys is Great American Ballpark. But, in fact, what's wrong with those guys is that they're bad pitchers. Dan O'Brien signed bad pitchers. You need to stop thinking of them as good pitchers gone wrong because they're not. Spending millions of dollars to acquire bad pitchers isn't a sign of leadership or good business sense.

    One of your primary excuses for the Milton signing has been that it would be a demonstration to other free agents that the Reds would spend money, and thus, Cincinnati would be a more attractive destination. The problem is such a demonstration only helps if you're willing to spend a lot more money. That additional money wasn't flying out of the Reds coffers nor could it be reasonably projected to be available after 2006.

    Secondly, dealing every MLB Free Agent you've acquired doesn't do much to inspire top-caliber MLB talent to jump on board, does it? Oh sure, it would have been great to see Milton moved out at the trade deadline in 2005, but that would have worked against the very reason you were using as an excuse for O'Brien bringing him in (i.e. to make Cinci a more attractive destination).
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  15. #59
    Hardscrabble wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenlord
    FWIW, Jimenez had just hit 270/357/405 in May when he got DFA'd.
    Yep, it wasn't based solely on his offensive production, but attitude.

    And that was something hadn't surfaced before 2005 in Cincinnati, and I was all for keeping him around.

    He was a decent second baseman with great plate discipline and good on base skills.

    Of course I was all for it.
    Pray for Rain.

  16. #60
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    It's entertainment.

    People have every right to critique it.

    Don't get on stage if you don't expect someone to comment on it.

    Yeah, I agree with you and Roy.

    It's the entertainment industry, and RedsZone is Variety.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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