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Thread: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

  1. #166
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Hmn...where have I heard something like that before...??

    Oh yeah...



    Might as well be using a template.
    Wow. You pulled that one out of youtr butt. Im impressed. Excuse me for being wrong once. Plus we actually lost money getting Milton, we made 7 mil. getting Williams.

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  3. #167
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    I thought I would bring out some of my scouting notes on Womack. Granted these are from 2004, Womack's career year. I just thought I would share for some fun.

    In 2004 I scouted the NL central exclusively for the end of May and all of June. (Living in Cincinnati keeps the expense report down although I do travel quite a bit. )

    I saw Tony Womack play in 26 games between May 21 and June 30th. Tony played in 36 games total in that span. Inter- League series were also played in that time frame. I was able to see the Cardinals play the Rangers that year as well. Drese threw a great game 2 in that series. 7IP 4H 2R 1ER 1BB 3SO 1HR (Anderson)

    In those 26 games I worked, Womack hit .333 (37-111) and walked 8 times. So I looked into the games that I did not see and found that he was on par with what I saw. He hit .343 against the NL Central from May 21 to June 30th. Marlon Andersen filled in for Womack at 2B on days he did not play.

    The Cardinals only played the Reds once during that span. Womack was 5 for 13 in that series. From my notes I see that he was still "turning" on 93-95 MPH. Aggressive on fastballs and did "fish for down and in breaking balls". Hard sliders down and in 0-1, 1-1 would result in a fould ball or a swing and miss if preceded by a first pitch fastball. EVERY time.

    Most teams attacked Womack high in the zone. His weakest zone by far. Tony was 3-11 when swinging at a first pitch fastball. 0 for 6 lettes and above. Low and away was not a weakness as several teams tried to go "soft away" where Tony hit them hard. On two occasions he was thrown changeups away with a 2-2 count in successive AB's and promptly slapped those pitches in the 5.5 hole for a base hit. In the next 10 games I saw him this was not attempted again.

    Renteria often hit behind Womack but the Cardinals were more dangerous when Lankford hit second. Womack's time to first varied from 3.77 to 3.89. Every steal attempt was within the first 3 pitches. Womack was picked off by LaRue in the second game of their series with a phenomal throw to end the 1st inning. In that same game Phil Norton gave up a two run single to Jason Isringhausen after the Reds Intentionally Walked Womack. Rolen eventually tripled and ended Norton's disatrous evening. 0.2IP 3H 5R 5ER 3BB

    Womack's arm was below average and range was still rated as good. Bag footwork was "behind a step" on occasion but I felt he was trying to get to the back of the bag to make the sure out due to his absence of arm strength. Recovering from Tommy John. He had a full step more range to his left than his right. Typical glove hand confidence. Anyhting hit up the middle was subject. If he did glove it a hard throw was nearly impossible. Runners should check his positioning to determine if he could make a timely throw to the bag once going to his left. His weak arm could leave Renteria hang out to dry enabling the runner to break up a potential DP. Tony had excellent range on all pop flies. Once again, with a weak arm runners should check their distance.

    Just some notes. I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.
    Last edited by Team Clark; 12-08-2005 at 09:34 PM.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  4. #168
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark
    I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.


    If you've got binders, you're at LEAST as qualified as DanO to run a major league team.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  5. #169
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark
    Just some notes. I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.
    I guess Dan O'Brien does read this board.

    Seriously, good work, but we really can't count on anything out of Womack. Even if he is getting further removed from surgery. He simply wasn't good even before the surgery.

    How scary is it that Christian Guzman's OPS was slightly better than Womack's? And that was with Guzman playing half his games in Washington. Womack was truly awful and in a league made for hitting no less.
    Last edited by CincyRedsFan30; 12-08-2005 at 09:40 PM.
    And this one belongs to the Reds!!!- Hall of Famer Marty Brennaman

  6. #170
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by CincyRedsFan30

    Seriously, interesting information, but I don't think

    Neither does DanO.

    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  7. #171
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    DanO and Cashman quotes highlighted concerning the trade:
    http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...l/13362601.htm
    Yankees ship Tony Womack to CincinnatiMIKE FITZPATRICK

    Associated Press


    DALLAS - The best Brian Cashman and the New York Yankees could do at the winter meetings was to unload Tony Womack and add lefty specialist Mike Myers to the bullpen. That wasn't bad as far as their general manager was concerned.

    "I wasn't optimistic coming into it," Cashman said Thursday before heading back to New York. "It's a weak free-agent market."

    After trading Womack to Cincinnati for a pair of 24-year-old prospects, the Yankees were still looking for a starting center fielder. Johnny Damon is available and New York talked to his agent, Scott Boras. But Boras is seeking a seven-year contract in the neighborhood of $84 million.

    The Yankees also would like to bring back longtime star Bernie Williams for one more year in a reserve role. The team offered him salary arbitration Wednesday, giving the sides another month to work out a possible deal. Williams has until Dec. 19 to accept arbitration, but he and the Yankees likely have an understanding that he will decline.

    Myers agreed to a two-year contract worth $2.4 million, he said in a phone interview Thursday. The deal is pending a physical, which he expects to take in the next five or six days.

    "The Yankees were one of my targeted teams this winter," Myers said. "Just knowing a couple of the other guys, I don't think it will be hard to fit in there. ... I'm excited."

    The 36-year-old lefty went 3-1 with a 3.13 ERA in 65 games for Boston last season. Used mainly against left-handed hitters, he pitched only 37 1-3 innings.

    "You don't win unless you have the seventh and eighth inning covered with someone outside of your closer," Myers said. "It's nice to see middle relievers get their due."

    The Yankees shipped Womack to the Reds for infielder Kevin Howard and outfielder Ben Himes, getting rid of the second baseman-turned-outfielder just one season after signing him. New York also will send $900,000 to the Reds to offset part of Womack's $2 million salary next season.

    "We'll try to take that extra million-one and spend it wisely in the free-agent market," Cashman said. "I'm satisfied that the move we made today is the right move for us."

    Womack hit .307 to help St. Louis win the NL pennant in 2004, then became a free agent and agreed to a $4 million, two-year contract with the Yankees last December.

    He was their starting second baseman for the first month of the season, but slumped badly and lost his job when they brought up rookie Robinson Cano. Womack was shifted to left field on May 3, then wound up sitting on the bench for long stretches.

    "We are delighted to have him," Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said. "I think he feels, too, it'll be a much better fit."

    Womack played 24 games at second, 40 in left, 22 in center and four in right for New York. O'Brien said the Reds plan to use him all over the field, too, and in a variety of roles.

    "We just felt he was more of a prototypical National League type of player. Our lineup needed an additional speed component," O'Brien said. "I know he's in outstanding shape. I wouldn't sell him short on what he's capable of accomplishing this year."

    Womack batted just .249 with 15 RBIs, 27 steals and only nine extra-base hits last season. He didn't get an at-bat during New York's five-game loss to the Los Angeles Angels in the first round of the playoffs.

    Howard hit .296 with 70 RBIs for Double-A Chattanooga last season and led the Arizona Fall League with a .409 batting average.

    "Some upside there," Cashman said.

    Himes had a combined .300 batting average for Class-A Sarasota and Dayton

  8. #172
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor
    If you've got binders, you're at LEAST as qualified as DanO to run a major league team.
    More than qualified. I'd say this board could get two or three of the most experienced/qualified people who have no binders and do better than DanO.

  9. #173
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    I can't believe I'm going to type this.

    For the same money, I'd rather have Juan Castro.

    Where's Gookie Dawkins when you need him? I say we go with the ALL SCRAPPY TEAM~!
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  10. #174
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor
    Neither does DanO.

    That was funny.

    You got me before I could edit. Darn it.
    And this one belongs to the Reds!!!- Hall of Famer Marty Brennaman

  11. #175
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44
    Wow. You pulled that one out of youtr butt. Im impressed. Excuse me for being wrong once. Plus we actually lost money getting Milton, we made 7 mil. getting Williams.
    Actually, I pulled that out of the advanced search function. You've consistently (and inappropriately) chastized folks for having takes on things that make sense, but that don't quite mesh with the world in which you live. Butts have nothing to do with it.

    The Reds lost a player (Casey) and the associated performance resource (OBP) to acquire Williams. The Reds also paid 1M of Casey's contract, meaning that the cost savings was 6M rather than 7M.

    But money is only good if you spend it and spend it well. The first thing the Reds did was take 1.1M of that money AND two prospect resources and dumped them on Tony Womack.

    That leaves about 5M bucks lying around and, at best, the team is in the same shape as before the trades. At minimum, if Womack plays AND Dave Williams produces similar results as last season, they're going to cancel each other out. At worst, Williams gets his comeuppance and regresses to the point at which he should have finished 2005 (5.00+ ERA). If that happens (and there's an exceptionally high probability, BTW), you're looking at a Run Differential loss for the Reds in 2006- all for the sake of saving five million bucks. All that's happening right now is a Run Differential/Cash shellgame where one resource is being traded for another with the best possible result being that the team gets no better on the field and has a great chance of actually getting worse.

    Now, here's what you need to do...

    Go out and ask 10 Reds fans the following question:

    "Would you prefer that the Reds be better and five million dollars more expensive or worse and five million dollars less expensive?"
    I think you'll get a good take on how many fans actually give a crap about five million dollars.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  12. #176
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Howard will out play Womack in 06
    Go Gators!

  13. #177
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    "I wouldn't sell him short on what he's capable of accomplishing this year."

    So you're going to admit soon that he isn't a good player?

    Disturbing:

    Womack had 26.5 Runs Created last year covering 329 AB.

    The "disappointing" (to some, particularly HOF announcers) EdE had 27.1 Runs Created in 211 AB.

    If Marty thought EdE was bad then what will he say about Womack? Oh, right, he brings a lot of intangibles to the table.
    Last edited by CincyRedsFan30; 12-08-2005 at 09:53 PM.
    And this one belongs to the Reds!!!- Hall of Famer Marty Brennaman

  14. #178
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    Howard will out play Womack in 06
    But will Howard play the game the right way both on and off the field?
    And this one belongs to the Reds!!!- Hall of Famer Marty Brennaman

  15. #179
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    Howard will out play Womack in 06

    Heck Krono, you'll probably out play Womack in 06.

    You're scrappier then he is (but not as scrappy as I am. One of my 6 Nobel Prizes is for "Scrappiness")
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  16. #180
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    Re: ESPN: Reds trade for Womack

    Quote Originally Posted by tbball10
    i think if womack plays full time he will be productive, and will provide the speed we need at the top of the lineup. it will also allow felo to bat 2nd where he is more suited.
    Wait. You want someone with a .287 OBP not only playing fulltime but batting leadoff? I can't possibly think of a worse idea.

    He was the worst hitting position player in the majors last year. Cristian Guzman OPS'd .020 pooints higher than him. I hate this trade. A lot. I just can't comprehend not giving the fulltime starting 2B job to Freel. He has a .375 OBP for a reason.
    Last edited by swityak11; 12-08-2005 at 09:51 PM.


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