Carson Palmer signs Extension

[SteelSD]

The story of this game is very simple.

Not as simple as going from a coin-flip to virtually no chance to win the game, but let's see.

* The Bengals lost their best player, emotional leader, and on-field captain on the second play of the game.

Ok. That's accurate.

* They responded with a rush of emotion and anger, which allowed them to close out the first half well.

They responded with skill as well. Probably have served them better to continue to rely on skill rather than heart and guts, because listening to you guys they have neither of the latter.

* But, that superhuman effort, coupled with the psychological trauma of seeing Palmer immobilized at halftime, wore the team out mentally.

AFC North Champion Cincinnati Bengals have no mental toughness. Well, if that's how it is, they started off that game with far less of a chance to win it than I thought.

Yeah. I bet it was very traumatizing to go into the locker room at halftime up by three in their first playoff game in a google years. At that point a professional squad should have had all the confidence in the world instead of allegedly falling apart.

* Pittsburgh made some easy adjustments on defense to capitalize on Kitna's lack of arm strength and indecisiveness.

Pittsburgh's defense has been beaten by worse quarterbacks than John Kitna.

* Tired defense + ineffective offense = loss.

Tired defense? Cincinnati dominated the time of possession through the first 28 Pittsburgh points. Pittsburgh had exactly one scoring drive of over three minutes that whole ballgame. They stunk, but that defense was fresh.

I don't see anything about being a playoff neophyte, or not being able to handle the Steelers' intensity. That's bullcrap. All season Palmer and the offense were the only saving grace for a horrible defense--they kept the ball moving and kept the team off the field. Without him, you have a below average QB in Kitna who lacks the skill set to do what the Bengals did best all year.

Jon Kitna produced a QB rating of 87.4 two years ago when he was the starter for the Bengals. He lost that job, but it had nothing to do with Jon Kitna's performance. Yet now he's being railed on as "below average".

And, BTW, what the Bengals did best offensively all season was to throw short passes to their receivers with an effective mix of running. They didn't simply bomb their way up and down the field. That 2nd-play deep ball by Palmer was 10% of his 40+ yard tosses for the season.

I'm not saying that absent Palmer's injury, the Bengals win. Far from it. But his injury took Cincy from probably a 45-55% shot at that game to a 10-20% chance. No one can deny that.

Well, there's a big difference between 55% and 10%. Smaller difference between 20% and 45%. I'd be a lot more apt to agree with the latter than the former but it appears now that the no-guts, no-heart, traumatized Bengals probably had about a 30% chance of winning that game coming in. I'll continue to adjust that percentage as the excuses continue to pile up.

As it stands, I don't know if von Oelhoffen laid a cheap shot on Palmer. I do, however, know that Polamalu took a swing at Rich Braham, I do know that several DBs assualted Houshmandzadeh in the end zone, I do know that Porter was hitting guys late all day. I also remember well Ward and Porter intimating retaliation after Thurman was tripped into Roethlisberger's knee two months ago. So you'll pardon me if I don't give Cowher and his "men" the benefit of the doubt here.

Polamalu didn't take a swing at Braham. He shoved the ball at his helmet. Stupid. It was a dumb to do. Polamalu consistently does dumb things and as a Steelers fan, it ticks me off. But that wasn't a punch. Porter is also a hothead. He makes me grumpy as well. I'd be able to look the other way more often if his play actually backed his mouth up but that happened in about two games this season.

Carter and Hope didn't "assault" Housh in the end zone. Hope was actually the more aggressive of the two (the dumb step-over thing), and Carter (who, again, doesn't even play enough to talk). But there was no chance that Housh was going to get hurt on that play unless he'd have run himself into the goal post.

Football is a physical game with macho guys who sometimes try to intimidate each other while on the field in an effort to put the other guy off his game. Players jaw at each other constantly on the field and shove and push and act like they're bigger and tougher and meaner than the other guy. Big deal.

And I never heard anything about Porter and/or Ward going on about "retribution". In any case, any conspiracy theory falls flat on it's keester considering that it projects a high-character former Bengal who's had multiple knee injuries as the weapon of choice. Good god.

In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what I or any fans think. But I hope sincerely that Palmer, and Willie, and Odell, and every other Bengal's heart of hearts they think Pittsburgh did it on purpose. Because that will focus them toward the job at hand next season.

Or maybe instead they could just play better defensively?

I dunno. Just a suggestion.

[dsmith421]

I'll respond to the stuff I disagree with.

They responded with skill as well. Probably have served them better to continue to rely on skill rather than heart and guts, because listening to you guys they have neither of the latter.

Hey, if it makes you feel better about the game to insinuate that there is no difference between the Bengals with Palmer and without, go to it. No one has implied the team lacked guts. But they are young, and saw their leader brought down with the second most brutal injury--next to a spinal injury--that happens regularly in football. It's only natural that the wind went out of their sails.

You think the Colts would be unaffected psychologically if von Oelhoffen rolls up Manning's knee on the first play this weekend?

Yeah. I bet it was very traumatizing to go into the locker room at halftime up by three in their first playoff game in a google years. At that point a professional squad should have had all the confidence in the world instead of allegedly falling apart.

B.S. They had lost their starting quarterback. Pittsburgh had marched down the field twice. No lead was safe. Yeah, they got rattled by the loss of Palmer. He's their best player, for God's sake. He is the biggest meaningful difference between the 8-8 2003 team and the 11-6 2005 team. Those guys realize that.

Pittsburgh's defense has been beaten by worse quarterbacks than John Kitna.

Steelers' five losses this season:
9/25 vs. NE. Opposing QB: Brady. PIT QB: R'berger.
10/16 vs. JAX. Opp QB: Leftwich. PIT QB: Maddox
11/20 at BAL. Opp QB: Boller. PIT QB: Maddox
11/27 at IND. Opp QB: Manning. PIT QB: R'berger. (first game back).
12/4 vs. CIN. Opp QB: Palmer. PIT QB: R'berger.

The only arguable loss Pittsburgh had in 2005 to a quarterback inferior to Jon Kitna was against Baltimore, in a game where Tommy Maddox played disastrously. Boller in that game "led" the Ravens to a grand total of 16 points. Pittsburgh's three losses with Roethlisberger (when they are unquestionably a different team) playing were against arguably 3 of the 4 best QBs in the league besides R'berger: Brady, Peyton, and Palmer.

Yeah, a full-strength Pittsburgh team was dropping games left and right to mediocrities.

[QUOTE}Jon Kitna produced a QB rating of 87.4 two years ago when he was the starter for the Bengals. He lost that job, but it had nothing to do with Jon Kitna's performance. Yet now he's being railed on as "below average". [/QUOTE]

Yeah, Kitna had a good season in 2003. Against a relatively weak schedule, with a running back who, even if not at the top of his game nor completely healthy, was considered one of the best in the NFL. Since 2003 he's thrown 133 NFL passes, not counting the playoff. Over the course of his career, Kitna has about a 75 rating, but nearly as many INTs as TDs, plus his well known difficulty holding onto the ball. He's 34 years old, his arm strength is in decline, and he's been a clipboard holder for two years. Oh, and in his one previous playoff game, he took a giant dump. Tommy Maddox had an 85 rating in 2002--feel as confident with him at the helm as Roethlisberger next week in Indianapolis?

And, BTW, what the Bengals did best offensively all season was to throw short passes to their receivers with an effective mix of running. They didn't simply bomb their way up and down the field. That 2nd-play deep ball by Palmer was 10% of his 40+ yard tosses for the season.

Kitna makes his living off dinks and dunks to the tight end and third receiver. Witness Kevin Walter's busy day on Sunday. Palmer uses his stronger arm to get to playmakers like Houshmandzadeh and Johnson. Kitna's weak arm allows teams to push their safeties forward because the deep ball is not a threat. With Palmer it is a constant threat, even if the number of actual completed plays is relatively low. Palmer's superior skill set opens up the line of scrimmage, Kitna allows teams to bring more pressure and ignore the deep ball.

LeBeau effectively exploited the Bengals offense in the second half. He could not do it in the second game in Pittsburgh. The only major difference: no Carson Palmer.

Well, there's a big difference between 55% and 10%. Smaller difference between 20% and 45%. I'd be a lot more apt to agree with the latter than the former but it appears now that the no-guts, no-heart, traumatized Bengals probably had about a 30% chance of winning that game coming in. I'll continue to adjust that percentage as the excuses continue to pile up.

I'm not freaking making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why they fell apart in the second half. You lose your best player, crap happens. Injuries are part of the game. Let's not forget that six weeks later that "no-guts" "no-heart" team went into your house, in a game you HAD to win, and won. It was ugly, but they got the job done. Just like Pittsburgh did on Sunday. No one questioned the guts and heart of those lunch pail Steelers when the Bengals won the division at Heinz Field.

I'll promise you one thing: if it had been Duane Cleamons or John Thornton blowing up Roethlisberger's knee on the second play and the Bengals took advantage of Maddox or Bunch, you'd have seen nothing more than muted celebrations from me, at least. I want desperately to beat the Steelers, and I'd have been happy to advance, but I'd have known on some level we didn't get your best shot. That's just me though.

As someone who has supported this team through bad and worse, I just felt unbelievably cheated at losing the franchise four minutes in. I think that's perfectly reasonable. But you want to ride out this ridiculous moral superiority that Steelers fans seem to think they earned by birthright, fine.

EDIT: Oh, and incidentally:

But Ward acknowledged he has gone after other NFL players in retaliation for an incident in a previous game and said, "You make a note of the guy and make sure it doesn't happen again."

Asked whether he has made such a mental note about Thurman, Ward said, "Until the next time we play them, we'll remember him. I will."

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/13353501.ht

[dsmith421]

And, with that, I'm turning the page on the 2005 football season. The Bengals have nothing to be ashamed of for their performance the first 14 games, it could have ended better, but that's sports for you.

I have substantial confidence that Coach Lewis will do the right things to upgrade the defense in the offseason and that Carson will rehab intelligently and diligently. I expect even better things next year.

Now, it's time to deal with other sports disasters, notably UD basketball and the Reds...

[GAC]

Was Ben healthy or 100% in all of those losses? Banged up knee while wearing a brace, thumb in a splint.

Why are Porter's antics bush league; but Chad Johnson's in the endzone not?

Thurma was "tripped" into Ben's knee; but von Oelhoffen's was a malicious and cheap shot. Go figure.

I guess it's all how you look at it, and which side of the field you are standing on.

Even if Palmer was never hurt and played the entire game, my personal feelings is that they would have still lost. It would have been closer, but they would have still lost. The Bengal's defense, which has been horrible in the last half of the season, and was not the same as the first half of the season, would have seen to that. Plus the fact that the Carson-led Bengals had lost their last two games (the Bills???), and hadn't exactly been lighting it up over the last several regular season games.

You'd think Palmer was the first "key" player ever lost to a NFL team that had their hopes and dreams suddenly dashed by such an injury. Take a good, hard look at the NFL's IR list over the last few years, and how alot of team's got "screwed" by injury.

I remember the good ol days of the AFC Central and where the Bengals, Browns, Pittsburgh, and Houston used to be the most physical and bruising division in the NFL. Players always went out of those games banged up.

Nowadays it's "You took a cheap shot at my player" I'm sorry - but it sounds like soccer Moms running out onto the field protesting when Johnny got pushed down and skinned his knee.

[Playadlc]

Apparantly Big Ben is a little upset about the comments by Marvin Lewis.

I love it. Pittsburgh knocks our franchise player out with a questionable hit, their players celebrate on the sidelines after it happened, and they are the team that is wronged.

Go Colts.

After Sunday’s game, Lewis ripped Roethlisberger for complaining last month about Thurman’s hit on his knee.

“Gee whiz, the guy got hurt. You can’t get it back," Lewis said. “To sit there and baby and cry like their quarterback, it’s ridiculous.”

On Wednesday, Roethlisberger said, “I can’t comment on it too much. You don’t expect that coming from a guy like that. Obviously, he was frustrated, but I don’t remember complaining. It’s just unfortunate coming from guy like that.”

But Roethlisberger complaint did make the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette the week after the Dec. 4 game in which he referred to the hit as a little dirty. Like von Oelhoffen, Thurman didn’t get fined, but, unlike von Oelhoffen, he was flagged for roughing.

Cowher went after more than just Lewis.

“The last thing we ever do is comment on things that their players say,” Cowher said. “I could have a whole press conference with some of the things that come from that team. I would like to think it was said out of frustration.”

On Monday, Lewis said he didn’t think the rivalry needed any more fuel.

But there it is..

[GAC]

Apparantly Big Ben is a little upset about the comments by Marvin Lewis. After Sunday’s game, Lewis ripped Roethlisberger for complaining last month about Thurman’s hit on his knee.... On Wednesday, Roethlisberger said, “I can’t comment on it too much. You don’t expect that coming from a guy like that. Obviously, he was frustrated, but I don’t remember complaining. It’s just unfortunate coming from guy like that.”

Why shouldn't Ben be upset if he was not the one, after Sunday's game, to bring up or re-hash the previous situation with the Thurman hit? Who brought it up first? If it was Ben, then you'd have a valid point maybe. But was it Ben or Lewis? And IF Lewis, then why, when he says he doesn't want to add any more fuel to this rivalry?

I'm not a Pittsburgh fan at all (believe me).... but I remember when Ben made that statement after that earlier game. It was one statement when he was asked by a Pitt media type about that hit. Ok - he thought Thurman was trying to hurt him. It was the local Pitt paper that posted his comments. I don't see any where after that where Ben was carrying it over or trying to further make a big deal of it.

Palmer was asked if the hit on him was malicious and meant to try and injure him. Carson stated, knowing von Oelhoffen, that he didn't feel it was, and that's it's just an unfortunate aspect of the game of football. I've listened to Dave Lapham and a few others, and they feel the same way.

“Gee whiz, the guy got hurt. You can’t get it back," Lewis said. “To sit there and baby and cry like their quarterback, it’s ridiculous.”

Wise words. Funny how it's suppose to apply to everyone else, but not to the Bengals, THEIR COACH, or their fans.

Cowher went after more than just Lewis.

“The last thing we ever do is comment on things that their players say,” Cowher said. “I could have a whole press conference with some of the things that come from that team. I would like to think it was said out of frustration.”

And as much as I hate Scowler - He's right! Face it folks! These division rivals (Bengals, Browns, Pitt), and their fans, hate each other. We probably don't hear a 1/3 of the crap that is being said on that field. Nobody is innocent. And to assume one is at the expense of the other is being pretty naive.

Thurman didn’t get fined, but, unlike von Oelhoffen, he was flagged for roughing.

A flag could have been thrown. But that is not the fault of Pittsburgh. Fault the officials. Or is the accusation now gonna fall that the officials favored Pitt?

On Monday, Lewis said he didn’t think the rivalry needed any more fuel.[/B]

It's been a raging bonfire for the last 30 years. What's one more log gonna do?

[SteelSD]

Hey, if it makes you feel better about the game to insinuate that there is no difference between the Bengals with Palmer and without, go to it.

First, I never "insinuated" any such thing. In fact, I've done nothing but freely admit that from a talent perspective there's a gap.

That being said, I've also stated numerous times that it appears folks want to assume that gap automatically would have translated into a better peformance than we saw from Kitna (who played better Sunday than Palmer did in the first Steelers meeting this year).

No one has implied the team lacked guts. But they are young, and saw their leader brought down with the second most brutal injury--next to a spinal injury--that happens regularly in football. It's only natural that the wind went out of their sails.

The wind went out of their sails and the result was two 10-point leads, 17 points in the first half, a three-point halftime lead, and they opened the second half with an efficient drive that should have resulted in a Field Goal. If that's the effect of getting the wind knocked out of your sales, I'm going to start taking valium as a pick-me-up.

I've now heard two completely contradictory versions of the Bengals reaction to the Palmer injury. The first version states that the injury gave them a rise and that they responded with anger and resolve. The second version is that the injury was a crushing blow to their drive and emotional stability.

You think the Colts would be unaffected psychologically if von Oelhoffen rolls up Manning's knee on the first play this weekend?

I think any player can be affected psychologically by adversity. How they handle that adversity is the key.

And if you want to look at what have may really knocked the wind out of the Bengals sails on Sunday, take a look at the time of possession on the Pittsburgh scoring drives.

B.S. They had lost their starting quarterback. Pittsburgh had marched down the field twice. No lead was safe. Yeah, they got rattled by the loss of Palmer. He's their best player, for God's sake. He is the biggest meaningful difference between the 8-8 2003 team and the 11-6 2005 team. Those guys realize that.

Yeah, they got "rattled" to one Punt in their first five possessions without a turnover.

Steelers' five losses this season:
9/25 vs. NE. Opposing QB: Brady. PIT QB: R'berger.
10/16 vs. JAX. Opp QB: Leftwich. PIT QB: Maddox
11/20 at BAL. Opp QB: Boller. PIT QB: Maddox
11/27 at IND. Opp QB: Manning. PIT QB: R'berger. (first game back).
12/4 vs. CIN. Opp QB: Palmer. PIT QB: R'berger.

The only arguable loss Pittsburgh had in 2005 to a quarterback inferior to Jon Kitna was against Baltimore, in a game where Tommy Maddox played disastrously. Boller in that game "led" the Ravens to a grand total of 16 points. Pittsburgh's three losses with Roethlisberger (when they are unquestionably a different team) playing were against arguably 3 of the 4 best QBs in the league besides R'berger: Brady, Peyton, and Palmer.

Pittsburgh lost five games to teams that played better that day than they did. That can easily happen with or without Ben Roethisberger. Ditto for the Bengals. Would I rather go into a game with Palmer than Kitna? Well, absolutely. To think otherwise would be stupid. Again, my point has NEVER been that Palmer wouldn't provide potential additional value to the Bengals versus Kitna. By point has been that it quite easily may not have made one bit of difference. Honestly, I think we're pretty close to agreeing on that but it seems that semantics are creating an understanding gap that isn't quite as wide as either of us thinks it is.

Yeah, a full-strength Pittsburgh team was dropping games left and right to mediocrities.

Well, over the last two seasons they haven't been dropping games left and right to anyone but Brady and we can add Peyton Manning to that list.

So ya' may have me there.

Yeah, Kitna had a good season in 2003. Against a relatively weak schedule...

Hmn...that's a slippy slope and methinks you may be on a teflon sled.

In 2003, the Bengals played teams who finished that season with a combined record of 96-112. In 2005, Bengals opponents posted a combined record of 99-109. The 2003 Bengals played 6 games against teams that qualified for the playoffs that year and posted a 3-3 record in those games. The 2005 Bengals posted a 2-3 record in the five games they played against Playoff teams.

If Kitna's numbers were bolstered by playing "relatively weak schedule", then wouldn't logic dictate that Palmer also finished with inflated numbers due to playing a similarly mediocre schedule?

Is that something you believe?

...with a running back who, even if not at the top of his game nor completely healthy, was considered one of the best in the NFL.

I hope you're talking about Rudi Johnson because he was the Bengals primary Running Back in 2003 and significantly outplayed Corey Dillon. Cincinnati finished 13th in Rushing Yards per game in 2003 and 13th in 2005. They gained 4.1 Yards per attempt in 2003 and 4.2 Yards per attempt in 2005.

There was no difference whatsoever.

Since 2003 he's thrown 133 NFL passes, not counting the playoff. Over the course of his career, Kitna has about a 75 rating, but nearly as many INTs as TDs, plus his well known difficulty holding onto the ball.

Kitna fumbled 7 times in 2003. Palmer fumbled 6 times in 2005.

He's 34 years old, his arm strength is in decline, and he's been a clipboard holder for two years. Oh, and in his one previous playoff game, he took a giant dump. Tommy Maddox had an 85 rating in 2002--feel as confident with him at the helm as Roethlisberger next week in Indianapolis?

Ah. So now Kitna is best represented by his first playoff start every six years ago, but I'm unable to use a more recent season to note that the guy was pretty good. Yeah. That's good reasoning.

And secondly, there isn't anyone on the planet who doesn't understand that Tommy Maddox was never the same after nearly being killed on the football field and degenerated from there. He lost his job to Roethisberger via injury, but it was like putting an animal out of it's misery. Not so with Kitna.

Kitna makes his living off dinks and dunks to the tight end and third receiver. Witness Kevin Walter's busy day on Sunday. Palmer uses his stronger arm to get to playmakers like Houshmandzadeh and Johnson.

Please. If you're a QB, you throw to whoever is open. In 2003, Charles Johnson was the 4th leading receiver in the NFL and finished 12th in Yards per Catch.

Using your one-game logic, Cedric Wilson is Ben Roethsiberger's only real option.

Kitna's weak arm allows teams to push their safeties forward because the deep ball is not a threat. With Palmer it is a constant threat, even if the number of actual completed plays is relatively low. Palmer's superior skill set opens up the line of scrimmage, Kitna allows teams to bring more pressure and ignore the deep ball.

First, something is only a "threat" if that team demonstrates they'll do it consistently. Secondly, if the deep ball isn't as much of an option, then you adjust. Marv and Co. did, but then they couldn't adjust to the adjustment. All you're really telling me is that the Bengals got out-coached.

LeBeau effectively exploited the Bengals offense in the second half. He could not do it in the second game in Pittsburgh. The only major difference: no Carson Palmer.

The Bengals played two games versus Pittsburgh this season. They lost one and Palmer looked three shades of awful. Just wanted to make sure you knew that. The Steelers had their starting Left Tackle in the first game. He was on the sidelines in street clothes last Sunday and it wasn't due to injury. In the last game against the Bengals, Ben Roethlisberger experienced pain every single time he threw the ball due to what could only have been a hairline fracture of his thumb. Y'know what happened? He couldn't throw the deep ball, zip accurate passes over the middle, or get a real feel for much.

So, no. Emphatically no. There were major differences on the other sideline versus the Pittsburgh team the Bengals played on December 4th. I never ONCE used those issues to excuse a Pittsburgh loss.

But I did tell everyone within earshot that if the Steelers could put up 31 points on the Bengals with those deficiencies, the Bengals would be facing a quick playoff elimination.

I'm not freaking making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why they fell apart in the second half. You lose your best player, crap happens. Injuries are part of the game. Let's not forget that six weeks later that "no-guts" "no-heart" team went into your house, in a game you HAD to win, and won. It was ugly, but they got the job done. Just like Pittsburgh did on Sunday. No one questioned the guts and heart of those lunch pail Steelers when the Bengals won the division at Heinz Field.

If you're trying to figure out why the Bengals fell apart in the second half, you should look no further than their Defense.

I'll promise you one thing: if it had been Duane Cleamons or John Thornton blowing up Roethlisberger's knee on the second play and the Bengals took advantage of Maddox or Bunch, you'd have seen nothing more than muted celebrations from me, at least. I want desperately to beat the Steelers, and I'd have been happy to advance, but I'd have known on some level we didn't get your best shot. That's just me though.

As someone who has supported this team through bad and worse, I just felt unbelievably cheated at losing the franchise four minutes in. I think that's perfectly reasonable. But you want to ride out this ridiculous moral superiority that Steelers fans seem to think they earned by birthright, fine.

What a bunch of bunk. I was chatting with Bengals fans from here at the website they've set up. I was openly concerned about Carson Palmer. At no point did I watch the drives the Bengals (sans Palmer) were making and note that it was only a matter of time for the other shoe to drop on your franchise. I was openly concerned at every moment a dramatically surprised when the Steelers were able to overcome...hmn...what's that word?? Oh yeah, ADVERSITY after being down by 10 points twice and allowing a drive that should have resulted in a field goal on the Bengal's first drive of the second half.

Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but at that point I sure figured that the Bengals had a better-than-10% chance to win that game regardless of the Quarterback.

EDIT: Oh, and incidentally:

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/13353501.ht

Yeah, I clicked on that link and noticed there was a passage you failed to cut-and-paste into your response:

Hines Ward: "I know of him, so he's not a dirty guy," said Ward, who, like Thurman, played at Georgia. "He's just out there running around trying to make plays. In the course of going down low and trying to tackle the guy, you're trying to play until the whistle's over. Fortunately they got a penalty and, luckily, Ben didn't get hurt."

Seems that Ward completely understood the play. Secondly, he never said anything about "retribution". He only stated that "You make a note of the guy and make sure it doesn't happen again." That's not a "threat" of retribution. That's just a comment that if it happens again, you might conclude that it's not an accident anymore.

Seriously, if you're going to take partial quotes out of context, please do a better job of it.

[SteelSD]

Why shouldn't Ben be upset if he was not the one, after Sunday's game, to bring up or re-hash the previous situation with the Thurman hit? Who brought it up first? If it was Ben, then you'd have a valid point maybe. But was it Ben or Lewis? And IF Lewis, then why, when he says he doesn't want to add any more fuel to this rivalry?

I'm not a Pittsburgh fan at all (believe me).... but I remember when Ben made that statement after that earlier game. It was one statement when he was asked by a Pitt media type about that hit. Ok - he thought Thurman was trying to hurt him. It was the local Pitt paper that posted his comments. I don't see any where after that where Ben was carrying it over or trying to further make a big deal of it.

Yep. Exactly. I can understand that in the immediate aftermath of a game some things are said that shouldn't be- particularly when the guy being interviewed is a 23 year-old kid. Furthermore, we're talking about a guy (Roethlisberger) who's missed games this season with knee injuries caused by on-the-field hits. He was frustrated obviously. He shouldn't have added the "dirty" comment for sure. That was bad, but it was a young guy being grumpy about ANOTHER hit to an area he's already had to come back from. And, to my knowledge, he never said word one about it again.

It is, however, ironic that Marvin Lewis spent more time crying about the hit to Palmer than Ben "cried" about the hit he took after Marvin called Ben out for his behavior. But I can sort of understand that as well because the Bengals just lost their franchise QB for months and he may never be the same. That sucks. But that doesn't absolve Marvin Lewis for being intellectually dishonest.

Reading the "article' Playadlc posted, it appears that the writer is being overly-bold in positioning his opinion before the actual quotes. Case in point:

Cowher went after more than just Lewis.

“The last thing we ever do is comment on things that their players say,” Cowher said. “I could have a whole press conference with some of the things that come from that team. I would like to think it was said out of frustration.”

Cowher didn't "go after" anyone with those words. No one. Not a player. Not a coach. No one. That writer needs a lession in journalistic integrity.

Palmer was asked if the hit on him was malicious and meant to try and injure him. Carson stated, knowing von Oelhoffen, that he didn't feel it was, and that's it's just an unfortunate aspect of the game of football. I've listened to Dave Lapham and a few others, and they feel the same way.

Palmer was very classy. I've never disliked the Bengals franchise and my opinion of them has been nothing but bolstered by Carson Palmer regardless of this injury. He's a real professional and a top-notch QB. I very much hope he beats the projections for recovery because the entire NFL would be better for it.

Wise words. Funny how it's suppose to apply to everyone else, but not to the Bengals, THEIR COACH, or their fans.

That comment is smack dab in the heart right on.

And as much as I hate Scowler - He's right! Face it folks! These division rivals (Bengals, Browns, Pitt), and their fans, hate each other. We probably don't hear a 1/3 of the crap that is being said on that field. Nobody is innocent. And to assume one is at the expense of the other is being pretty naive.

The only team in the NFL I truly dislike is the Ravens. I like the Bengals a little bit. Even flew out to Cinci to take in a Bengals/Pitt game when the new stadium opened. Good friends with many Bengals fans. Kept telling them that with their offensive talent they'd have a good team in a few years.

At some point, I think Bengals/Pittsburgh could be a heck of a rivalry...if the Bengals would beat Pitt in a meaningful game.

A flag could have been thrown. But that is not the fault of Pittsburgh. Fault the officials. Or is the accusation now gonna fall that the officials favored Pitt?

I wouldn't even go there, GAC.

It's been a raging bonfire for the last 30 years. What's one more log gonna do?

From my perspecive it hasn't been anything near a raging bonfire. It's been a quick-lit match at times, but mostly I feel bad for Bengals fans that they haven't had anything resembling a winning organization recently. Heck, I was grumpy when I visited that the "Fire Brown' banners were removed so quickly.

So I can understand the dismay at losing their franchise QB on the 2nd play of their first playoff game in a billion years. What I can't understand is a good deal of the illogical reaction to that event.

[Redsfaithful]

Plus the fact that the Carson-led Bengals had lost their last two games (the Bills???), and hadn't exactly been lighting it up over the last several regular season games.

They scored 38 against Pittsburgh, 23 against your Browns, and then 41 against Detroit. That's not lighting it up?

They were flat against Buffalo, I'll give you that, but Palmer only played two series against KC and a ton of reserves played that week.

[GAC]

They scored 38 against Pittsburgh, 23 against your Browns, and then 41 against Detroit. That's not lighting it up?

Excuse me? But against Cleveland, throwing for 93 yds (the longest being 16) and having the worst QB rating this year (53.5%) is not "lighting it up" my friend.

They were flat against Buffalo, I'll give you that, but Palmer only played two series against KC and a ton of reserves played that week.

Ah yes - the old "we were just flat" excuse for the QB rating of 86.1 vs Buffalo. It doesnt matter that Buffalo's defense is one of the worst in the NFL (29th), giving up 343 yds/game, and Palmer and company should have ate them up. The Bengals were just flat.

I had a co-worker try that on me after the Brown's game also. Don't give any credit to the opposition (coaching, defense, etc) - they had nothing to do with it. We were just flat.

How many times are you gonna trod that excuse out whenever Palmer has an "off day"?

[GAC]

From my perspecive it hasn't been anything near a raging bonfire.

Yeah, but you're a youngster when it comes to the old AFC Central days back in the 70's when these divisional teams were out there trying to kill each other.

Back then, if this play had ocurred, I'd have agreed that the defender was trying to take him out and hurt him. Because they were!

Today it's more BIG mouth talk and alot of taunting on that field.

[M2]

They were flat against Buffalo, I'll give you that, but Palmer only played two series against KC and a ton of reserves played that week.

I'm surprised they blew off the KC game. Losing to a bad team like Buffalo is something you want to get out of your system. Coming back and showing a solid club like KC who's boss would have instilled a bit more confidence.

The Patriots blew off their last game too, but A) they'd been battered all season, B) they were playing their best football in December and C) it's a supremely level-headed club.

There's a head game associated with the postseason in most sports. Baseball's the exception. I maintain that's because you play so much in baseball that extraneous stuff doesn't have time to creep in and settle. The Bengals got torched by the Buffalo offense, hardly an imposing unit, and then they got waxed by KC. The Bengals were the worst defensive team of any of the playoff entrants and they'd just surrendered 74 points in two losses heading into their first playoff contest in forever. I've got to imagine the defense lacked confidence and, sure enough, the Steelers had their way with the Bengals defense.

If the plan was to go in and play like this was a CFL shootout, then it was doomed from the start. A good defense, and I'm under the impression Pittsburgh's got one of those, will take away some of your weapons (namely the run) and you're going to come up short. It's the same mistake the Redskins made back when the Raiders beat them in the Super Bowl after the 1983 season. The Skins had won a 37-35 shootout over the Raiders during the regular season and had an offense that overwhelmed most of its opponents. The team went in counting on 30+ points that never materialized (except for the Raiders). They had forgotten about the basics, something Joe Gibbs admitted to later, and the Raiders beat them up.

Anyway, it seems to me the Bengals defense had to be walking into that game questioning itself. Plus, giving up on the KC game (along with the Patriots letting Miami slide) sent the message to the Steelers that no one wanted any part of them. I'm not so sure the Bengals were built to win for the postseason in the first place, but my take is that any NFL club that walks into the playoffs on a slide isn't likely to stick around very long. That's the kind of club that folds when things start to go wrong. Note that the Steelers didn't fold when the Bengals were up early in the game. You've got to be able to take a punch.

[deltachi8]

If the plan was to go in and play like this was a CFL shootout, then it was doomed from the start.

Also ask the Buffalo Bills in any of their 4 Super Bowl losses, especially Super Bowl 25.

[Blimpie]

The Patriots blew off their last game too, but A) they'd been battered all season, B) they were playing their best football in December and C) it's a supremely level-headed club.

The Patriots also knew that if they somehow "managed" to lose to the Dolphins in Week # 17, then they would host Jacksonville instead of Pittsburgh in their wild card playoff game.

While nobody has ever or will ever accuse Bill Belichek of tanking a game...... he had to be wary of the fact that their playoff chances were better facing Jacksonville (warm weather team that was starting a rusty QB) versus Pittsburgh (physical running team that was rolling teams by three TD's per game during the month of December).

Just an observation.

[GAC]

I'm surprised they blew off the KC game. Losing to a bad team like Buffalo is something you want to get out of your system. Coming back and showing a solid club like KC who's boss would have instilled a bit more confidence.

The Patriots blew off their last game too, but A) they'd been battered all season, B) they were playing their best football in December and C) it's a supremely level-headed club.

There's a head game associated with the postseason in most sports. Baseball's the exception. I maintain that's because you play so much in baseball that extraneous stuff doesn't have time to creep in and settle. The Bengals got torched by the Buffalo offense, hardly an imposing unit, and then they got waxed by KC. The Bengals were the worst defensive team of any of the playoff entrants and they'd just surrendered 74 points in two losses heading into their first playoff contest in forever. I've got to imagine the defense lacked confidence and, sure enough, the Steelers had their way with the Bengals defense.

If the plan was to go in and play like this was a CFL shootout, then it was doomed from the start. A good defense, and I'm under the impression Pittsburgh's got one of those, will take away some of your weapons (namely the run) and you're going to come up short. It's the same mistake the Redskins made back with the Raiders beat them in the Super Bowl after the 1983 season. The Skins had won a 37-35 shootout over the Raiders during the regular season and had an offense that overwhelmed most of its opponents. The team went in counting on 30+ points that never materialized (except for the Raiders). They had forgotten about the basics, something Joe Gibbs admitted to later, and the Raiders beat them up.

Anyway, it seems to me the Bengals defense had to be walking into that game questioning itself. Plus, giving up on the KC game (along with the Patriots letting Miami slide) sent the message to the Steelers that no one wanted any part of them. I'm not so sure the Bengals were built to win for the postseason in the first place, but my take is that any NFL club that walks into the playoffs on a slide isn't likely to stick around very long. That's the kind of club that folds when things start to go wrong. Note that the Steelers didn't fold when the Bengals were up early in the game. You've got to be able to take a punch.

Excellent post and analogy.