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Thread: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

  1. #31
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    you can easily make the argument that it's not a Hall of Numbers

    most within the next group weren't scary, and none transformed the game.

    Rivera's in.
    To me, Rivera underlines the difference the difference between scary and Bruce Sutter. It didn't help that Sutter had his best seasons with the Cubs in the late '70s, a team that scared no one, but Rivera's a force of nature in a way Sutter never was. IMO Wagner's a lot scarier than Sutter and Hoffman's about equal.
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  3. #32
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    It didn't help that Sutter had his best seasons with the Cubs in the late '70s, a team that scared no one,
    Dave Kingman playing outfield for the Cubs scared me.

  4. #33
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    he was also SCARY.
    Gossage was scary. So was Rob Dibble. Those guys that could throw 98-99 mph and were not afraid to come under your chin, that's scary. I can honestly say getting dusted by one of those guys would have left me in need of a uniform change.
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  5. #34
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Scary doesn't always mean valuable. Nolan Ryan was very scary (and is a very deserving HOF'er) but his teammate Tom Seaver was less scary and appreciably better.

    Steve Dalkowski was one of the scariest pitchers ever. If you had a team of Steve Dalkowskis, the opponents' hitters would probably play the entire game with craps in their pants, but would still win.

    This is why one should consider numbers much more than oral history when determining Hall of Fame candidates.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  6. #35
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    If you ignore "numbers" and just go by "fame," then Phil Rizzuto is more deserving of the HOF than is Barry Larkin, Dwight Gooden is more deserving than is Phil Niekro, and Jose Canseco is more deserving than is Tony Gywnn.
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  7. #36
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili
    Scary doesn't always mean valuable. Nolan Ryan was very scary (and is a very deserving HOF'er) but his teammate Tom Seaver was less scary and appreciably better.
    you're forgetting that being appreciably better makes him MORE scary

    we've all faced the HUGE guy that could kill the ball but that WILL make outs. We WANT to face that guy with the game on. So that's the opposite of scary.

  8. #37
    Pagan/Asatru Ravenlord's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    didn't i read somewhere that Sutter invented the splitfinger as we know it now? if that be the case, that's more than likely what got him in.
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  9. #38
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    The forkball has been around for a long time. But it wasn't thrown with the arm speed and torque that the splitter has.

    The splitter has damaged a lot of arms since it became popular. It's missed a lot of bats too.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  10. #39
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    exactly. After Sutter, baseball was just different

    didn't someone smart already say that?

  11. #40
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    exactly. After Sutter, baseball was just different

    didn't someone smart already say that?


    Possibly, but I don't remember saying it though. :

    The pitch that changed baseball forever was the slider, IMO.

    The splitter definitely changed things, but if I had to pick one thing about pitching that changed the landscape more than any other pitch, it would be the slider.

    And it's for the same reason as the splitter. A ball that looks like a fastball and has late breaking downward movement.

    The splitty has a more devestating effect, and goes straight down, the slider more diagonal in movement. But the splitter hurts arms more and when you fall out of form with it, it can be a career ender.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  12. #41
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    Possibly, but I don't remember saying it though. :

    The pitch that changed baseball forever was the slider, IMO.

    The splitter definitely changed things, but if I had to pick one thing about pitching that changed the landscape more than any other pitch, it would be the slider.

    And it's for the same reason as the splitter. A ball that looks like a fastball and has late breaking downward movement.

    The splitty has a more devestating effect, and goes straight down, the slider more diagonal in movement. But the splitter hurts arms more and when you fall out of form with it, it can be a career ender.
    Agreed. Plus, not that many guys ever threw the splitter. When you get down to it, there's only three guys who've been able to throw it consistently without it tearing apart their arms (and Sutter was not one of those guys). Mind you, they're three pretty great pitchers, but the split is one of three plus-plus pitches with each of them.

    IMO, the splitter had minimal impact on the game. It made a few flash-in-the-pan relievers and didn't change the way the game is played (like the slider).

    The short reliever had already been invented before Sutter and he was just one of the guys around whom the concept cemented itself. There was an argument at the time, one which I still agree with, that Sutter's usage pattern (only coming in to protect a late lead) was the function of his personal limitations. Sutter couldn't log innings like Gossage or Fingers or Marshall. The guy wore out, so Herman Franks had to cherry pick the spots where he used him.

    FWIW, I don't have a problem with Sutter making the HOF. I'm just of the opinion that Sutter's inclusion means Gossage and Lee Smith should get in too. Frankly, given a choice between Sutter and Dan Quisenberry, I'd take Dan Quisenberry, though that's going to be a matter for historians to investigate in 50 years.
    Last edited by M2; 01-12-2006 at 12:14 PM.
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  13. #42
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    Re: Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    exactly. After Sutter, baseball was just different
    You could make a similiar case for Dave Concepcion.

    He's the one who invented the SS play on astro turf, where you go into the hole and throw the ball to 1st on the bounce.

    I think that Concepcion gets screwed because his offensive stats, which were superior for a SS during his era, are now dwarfed by the Ripkin's and the Rodriquez's.

    I always considered Concepcion a marginal, but ligitamite, HOF candidate, more or less on par with Tony Perez.The voters certainly don't share my opinion.


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