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Thread: What is the Reds' "Plan"

  1. #16
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan
    I'm sick of hearing competitive, I want to win. I'm tired of hearing baseball fans talk about Billy Beane and Moneyball like they are the second coming of Jesus Christ. Billy Beane and the Oakland A's haven't won a damn thing. The plan should be to win year in and year out. Not playing to win is playing to lose, and that is unacceptable.

    Rant over.
    This morning on the local sports station in Buffalo they were talking how the Sabres captains (Drury and Briere) pulled the team aside this year and said no more of this nonsense frm the past of hoping to get to .500. We want to win.

    Hoping or trying for .500 or to be competitive may or may not get you there, but it most certainly keeps your eyes of truly winning. Its really a distraction to make fans or teams feel like they are accomplishing something great, when really they are just avoiding suckitude.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

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  3. #17
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenlord
    so then what's your theory on building a team to win in the season, and win in the playoffs?

    Start putting banned substances in the visitor's clubhouse.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  4. #18
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    There are plans, and then there is the execution of the plan.

    I believe that DanO had quite a plan when he interviewed. He told them exactly what they wanted to hear. He told them that he could rebuild the infrastructure and develop talent from within, just like the Twins and A's. He sold them on this approach as the only way a small market team could compete.

    That was the long term plan.

    I believe he told them that we weren't all that bad right now, and with a few key acquisitions we could be "competitive".

    Competitive. The holy grail. Not champions. Competitive.

    And to an old school businessman like Lindner, it must have sounded reasonable. Get the infrastructure in order, become competitive in the short term, and build for the future.

    Problem is the guy in charge of the few "key acquisitions" was DanO. And when the purse strings loosened last winter, he wasn't up to the task.

    He's in over his head. I don't know for sure what he's done with the infrastructure. I'm not there. I know with absolute certainty what he's done for the big league team.

    Institutionalized mediocrity.
    I think that pretty much sums it up. I honestly think they are trying to build through the farm system but they really haven't done too good of a job so far. Last year's draft showed promise but it's still going to be a few years before any of those players can contribute on the big league level. But they fear actually backing up the truck and going on a full rebuilding mode on the big league level because they fear attendance will drop like a rock. That's why they go after guys like Aurilia and Womack because they don't quite trust the youngsters to make mistakes on the major league level because an error or a strikeout may lose a game for them. I do believe that they think the pitching is what it's not cracked up to be but what can you do about it? Basically their plan is to tread water until the young pitchers are ready.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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  5. #19
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Blimpie
    Now that we have re-signed Jason Larue, my wife thinks the Reds can stand pat. Apparently, he is dreamy...
    We need to start a club.

    Championships for MY teams in my lifetime:
    Cincinnati Reds - 75, 76, 90
    Chicago Blackhawks - 10, 13
    University of Kentucky - 78, 96, 98, 12
    Cincinnati Bengals - None
    Chicago Bulls - 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98

  6. #20
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    I think O'Brien sees the franchise as the A's pre-trio. We have some solid major league talent, but not enough to make the playoffs. However, a full scale rebuilding effort is out of the question for public relations reasons. So the 'plan' is to continue to stockpile young arms, around which a team will someday be built. In the meantime, the goal is to be as competitive as possible. I don't think this is a bad plan.

    The problem, as has been pointed out, is in the execution. We basically just traded a 2nd round pick to resign a backup IF. They are so worried about maintaining appearances that they are hurting the rebuilding effort. They'd rather pour 25MM in to Eric Milton and claim he's a #1 then let Matt Belisle spend the whole year doing the same thing. Admitting that there simply aren't any top pitchers who make sense to sign (ie. pay) and that our #1/#2 types are going to have to come from in house and then ACTUALLY ACTING THAT WAY would be a wonderful first step. If a "proven" guy like Milton bombs, you can blame the player for having a bad year. If a prospect like Belilse bombs, it's managements fault for counting on a young guy who's not ready. They don't seem willing to take the responsibility. Furthermore, they aren't even very good about maintaining appearances -- thinking lipstick on the cow makes us forget that it's a cow in the first place.

    The one thing I actually think they've done sort of right so far is the bullpen. Until we have starters who can give us 6 IP, there's no use "solidifying" the back end with a top end closer. In the meantime we have a few capable vets who can mentor the young guns. And we aren't wasting cash on a proven closer who may only get 40 opportunities the whole season anyways.

    The failure in the lineup is a direct result of not understand the concept of replacement level talent. There is no doubt in my mind that Ray Olmedo would provide more to the roster than Tony Womack, for less money, and with the potential to become an actually useful player. Any at bats Freel gets in the OF while Aurilia is at 3B could've gone to Chris Denorfia w/ Freel at 3B.

    Management is scared of looking bad, and in the process is looking bad. Some of the right ideas are in place. They just need the balls to do it the right way and stop trying to fool the public in to thinking we're just another "proven veteran" away from being right there with the Cards. We aren't that stupid.

  7. #21
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    I actually think DanO has a simple, well-defined plan: Fill holes with veterans and draft tools.

    On a different club, say the Yankees, that's not a bad idea. New York's got the money to buy veterans off the top of the stack and it mostly uses its minors for trade fodder.

    The problem is these things aren't relevant to the Reds. Shaky veteran patches only reinforce the pitching woes the club has endured and DanO's veterans, namely Rich Aurilia, have gotten in the way of the younger players the club needs to be building around.

    On the draft end, tools drafts don't create depth, which is what the Reds' system desperately needs. They also can take a long time to bear fruit. The Reds can't afford to wait until 2010 before the system starts offering help. The Reds need a block of players to arrive and perform in 2007-2009 and those players just aren't in the mix right now. Maybe one of the college pitchers from the 2005 draft can bust through high A this year and have some major league impact by 2009, but the HS arms from 2004 (including Homer Bailey) likely will take a bit longer just as a function of age (and that's IF they ever pan out). DanO inherited a time hole that his tools proclivities haven't been able to fill and he hasn't been able to address it via trade either.

    It makes the latter part of this decade a real dicey proposition. If the Reds lose any talent, the pipeline doesn't look capable of replacing it. Basically, DanO fiddled with veterans while the farm system has continued to burn.
    Last edited by M2; 01-12-2006 at 02:45 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  8. #22
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    It's funny, the farm system became depleted during the Schott years, amd everyone bemoaned this fact. Then, it seems, the system made a bit of a recovery, and it looked like we were on our way to bouncing back. Suddenly, it's in the pits again, with barely a prospect worth mentioning in sight.

    If this team could just develop two top-tier starters (rather than the three Oakland developed), with our offensive capabilities we would be a force to be reckoned with. Unfortunately, this team hasn't produced a starter worth remembering since Tom Browning which is, you know, completely pathetic.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  9. #23
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Someone had made a mention of the execution of a plan.

    I'm all in favor of it.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  10. #24
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I actually think DanO has a simple, well-defined plan: Fill holes with veterans and draft tools.

    On a different club, say the Yankees, that's not a bad idea. New York's got the money to buy veterans off the top of the stack and it mostly uses its minors for trade fodder.

    The problem is these things aren't relevant to the Reds. Shaky veteran patches only reinforce the pitching woes the club has endured and DanO's veterans, namely Rich Aurilia, have gotten in the way of the younger players the club needs to be building around.

    On the draft end, tools drafts don't create depth, which is what the Reds' system desperately needs. They also can take a long time to bear fruit. The Reds can't afford to wait until 2010 before the system starts offering help. The Reds need a block of player to arrive and perform in 2007-2009 and those players just aren't in the mix right now. Maybe one of the college pitchers from the 2005 draft can bust through high A this year and have some major league impact by 2009, but the HS arms from 2004 (including Homer Bailey) likely will take a bit longer just as a function of age (and that's IF they ever pan out). DanO inherited a time hole that his tools proclivities haven't been able to fill and he hasn't been able to address it via trade either.

    It makes the latter part of this decade a real dicey proposition. If the Reds lose any talent, the pipeline doesn't look capable of replacing it. Basically, DanO fiddled with veterans while the farm system has continued to burn.
    Good analysis of why Dan O is terribly miscast as GM for this team.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

  11. #25
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    to play three card monty until he gets found out for the fraud he is and gets fired.
    Last edited by pedro; 01-12-2006 at 02:32 PM.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  12. #26
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    I think the Reds plan is to tell its customers "just give us your damn money and shut up".

    Pay attention to the open sky

  13. #27
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Ask Cast and his people he hires. They hold your fortune. You need to let go of the present.

  14. #28
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis
    Ask Cast and his people he hires. They hold your fortune. You need to let go of the present.
    If those who don't know that past are doomed to repeat it, then I'd argue that those who don't know the present have become a walking fiction.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  15. #29
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    I feel like I'm reading fortune cookies.

    Pay attention to the open sky

  16. #30
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker
    I feel like I'm reading fortune cookies.
    with no fortune in the middle.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun


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