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Thread: What is the Reds' "Plan"

  1. #31
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    If those who don't know that past are doomed to repeat it, then I'd argue that those who don't know the present have become a walking fiction.
    What are you saying, Cast doesn't know the condition of Reds baseball over the last 10 years? Nah

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  3. #32
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker
    I feel like I'm reading fortune cookies.
    "You will acquire several sub-par veterans, who will lead your team to a 72-90 record and 5th place finish in your division.

    Learn Chinese! Neehow = Hello

    Lucky #'s 8 13 19 25 36 48"
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  4. #33
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    What is the Reds' "Plan"
    Whatever it is it makes me feel like I'm holding Dega's "Plan" in Papillon.

  5. #34
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis
    What are you saying, Cast doesn't know the condition of Reds baseball over the last 10 years? Nah
    No, what I'm saying is that DanO's chief mistake was that he paid no attention the Reds' current situation when he took the reins in 2003, tried to graft on a plan that didn't fit and blew open a wormhole of suckitude into the latter part of the decade as a result.

    While the new ownership hopefully walks in swinging a scythe, that won't matter until some pays attention to the Reds' present problems and addresses them. It's not just a matter of understanding what mistakes were made, it's being able to look at the organization and accurately assess what sort of animal you're trying to tame. The Reds' present problems don't evaporate when DanO, John Allen and Carl Lindner get to stepping.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  6. #35
    Member ochre's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    The playoffs are where you hope to catch lightning in a bottle, not the regular season. Just thought I'd point that out.
    4009



  7. #36
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    The plan is obviously what it has been......keep doing what hasn't worked and think it will work this time.

    Insane, isn't it?

  8. #37
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw
    The plan is obviously what it has been......keep doing what hasn't worked and think it will work this time.

    Insane, isn't it?
    The plan is quite simple -- "rebuild" the franchise while attempting to keep the fans from labeling the team is being IN the "rebuilding" stage. The front office keeps the fans coming to the ballpark by making strategic acquisitions designed to give the team an appearence of competitiveness and an outside shot at respectability. Then, on the back end, draft lots of raw talent and wait for it to make it's way through the minor leagues.

    Think of it as a modification of the same plan the Pirates and Brewers have been on for a decade -- except with the occaisonal bone thrown to the fans to keep them excited and buying tickets when ownerships sees intrest waning. Last year, team getting worse, fans getting apathetic -- bam, make a comparatively "big dollar" signing and get the buzz back up around the team before tickets go on sale.

    Fire managers every so often to try and make it seem like winning is a priority -- that's why there's been no attempt to secure the services of a top name or winning manager. All of these guys (from Boone to Miley to Narron) are just fall guys, holding the place until they get fired, some new guy is named interim manager, promoted to manager, and fired only to have the process repeated. Keep costs under control. Keep interest in the product high. Hope that someday all of these drafts pan out.

    That's the Reds plan. Being executed to perfection. But for Carl Linder selling the team, I expect Dan O'Brien would've stayed GM for another 3 or 4 years running this program and keeping the fans JUST interested enough to come out to the ballpark.
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  9. #38
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Cabesa
    I disagree, I think the plan is to take suckitude to a new level.
    Nah, as long as someone else sucks more the Reds go to bed smiling.
    Go Gators!

  10. #39
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I actually think DanO has a simple, well-defined plan: Fill holes with veterans and draft tools.

    On a different club, say the Yankees, that's not a bad idea. New York's got the money to buy veterans off the top of the stack and it mostly uses its minors for trade fodder.

    The problem is these things aren't relevant to the Reds. Shaky veteran patches only reinforce the pitching woes the club has endured and DanO's veterans, namely Rich Aurilia, have gotten in the way of the younger players the club needs to be building around.

    On the draft end, tools drafts don't create depth, which is what the Reds' system desperately needs. They also can take a long time to bear fruit. The Reds can't afford to wait until 2010 before the system starts offering help. The Reds need a block of players to arrive and perform in 2007-2009 and those players just aren't in the mix right now. Maybe one of the college pitchers from the 2005 draft can bust through high A this year and have some major league impact by 2009, but the HS arms from 2004 (including Homer Bailey) likely will take a bit longer just as a function of age (and that's IF they ever pan out). DanO inherited a time hole that his tools proclivities haven't been able to fill and he hasn't been able to address it via trade either.

    It makes the latter part of this decade a real dicey proposition. If the Reds lose any talent, the pipeline doesn't look capable of replacing it. Basically, DanO fiddled with veterans while the farm system has continued to burn.


    I think you're exactly right.

    Killer post.
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  11. #40
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    The Reds Plan
    Step 1: Steal Underpants
    Step 2:
    Step 3: Profit
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  12. #41
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    No, what I'm saying is that DanO's chief mistake was that he paid no attention the Reds' current situation when he took the reins in 2003, tried to graft on a plan that didn't fit and blew open a wormhole of suckitude into the latter part of the decade as a result.

    While the new ownership hopefully walks in swinging a scythe, that won't matter until some pays attention to the Reds' present problems and addresses them. It's not just a matter of understanding what mistakes were made, it's being able to look at the organization and accurately assess what sort of animal you're trying to tame. The Reds' present problems don't evaporate when DanO, John Allen and Carl Lindner get to stepping.
    and I don't care about DanO. He is dead to me. It is the "plan" to get rid of these problems, which is critical now. That is what needs to be disconcerned and evaluated now.

  13. #42
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    I am going to bring up Jimbo again....but for a good reason.

    In management training, they talk about Strategic and Tactical plans. Strategic Plans are where you want to go.....Tactical are how do you get there.

    The first and foremost....most important thing to have is a good Strategic plan. Without it, your Tactical plan simply defines how quickly you are going to fail.

    With Jimbo, I think the Reds had a bad Strategic plan, but Jimbo had a great Tactical plan.....which meant that he failed very quickly.....or as they say in management class, he DIED very quickly. Since there was much change and even a few lucky flourishes involved, Jimbo stayed around and actually went through several Tactical plans before he finally flew into a mountainside and crashed.

    With DanO, you have a guy who still has an awful (or no) Strategic plan, but who is also awful Tactically. This guy, in management class, is said to DIE slowly.....and the worse the plans, the slower the death.

    Change in management may get rid of DanO, so maybe instead of 15 years of futility, it will only be a few......but make no mistake.....if Dano stayed as long as Jimbo did, it would be a long, slow, downward spiral of a death.

    You simply have to hope that somehow, Castellini brings in a GOOD Strategic plan and hires a great tactician.
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  14. #43
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    The plan is quite simple -- "rebuild" the franchise while attempting to keep the fans from labeling the team is being IN the "rebuilding" stage. The front office keeps the fans coming to the ballpark by making strategic acquisitions designed to give the team an appearence of competitiveness and an outside shot at respectability. Then, on the back end, draft lots of raw talent and wait for it to make it's way through the minor leagues.

    Think of it as a modification of the same plan the Pirates and Brewers have been on for a decade -- except with the occaisonal bone thrown to the fans to keep them excited and buying tickets when ownerships sees intrest waning. Last year, team getting worse, fans getting apathetic -- bam, make a comparatively "big dollar" signing and get the buzz back up around the team before tickets go on sale.

    Fire managers every so often to try and make it seem like winning is a priority -- that's why there's been no attempt to secure the services of a top name or winning manager. All of these guys (from Boone to Miley to Narron) are just fall guys, holding the place until they get fired, some new guy is named interim manager, promoted to manager, and fired only to have the process repeated. Keep costs under control. Keep interest in the product high. Hope that someday all of these drafts pan out.

    That's the Reds plan. Being executed to perfection. But for Carl Linder selling the team, I expect Dan O'Brien would've stayed GM for another 3 or 4 years running this program and keeping the fans JUST interested enough to come out to the ballpark.
    CE's got an excellent point here, and it just ties into my belief that O'Brien is out to just save his job, even at the expense of crippling the franchise in the long term.

    Does O'Brien care about the long term development of Encarnacion? Sure, if O'Brien is still around. If Dan O'Brien gets fired sometime in 2006 then I highly doubt he'll care in 2008 if Encarnacion is an All-Star. Heck, O'Brien would probably just get thrown back into circulation when some other sorry team hires him in a lesser front office role, and then he'd be competing against the Reds. O'Brien can't afford to risk a full "developing" season in the majors from Encarnacion in the short term, regardless if it's best for Encarnacion and the franchise in the long term, because all that does is put O'Brien's job further in jeopardy. This belief that Rich Aurilia can help the team more in 2006 than Encarnacion can help is based entirely on the condition that it helps the Reds win more games in 2006 so O'Brien has a better chance at sticking around. The fact that Encarnacion has a chance to be a star in three seasons is a moot point for O'Brien personally if Dan loses his job.

    Short term goals = worse for Reds in the long term, but better for O'Brien's chances at saving his job
    Long term goals = better for Reds in the long term, but worse for O'Brien's chances at saving his job

    And that's not just saying the Reds will be better off in the longterm if they fire O'Brien (they will). Like M2 said earlier in the thread, we need to start preparing the pipeline of youth so we actually have some legitimate shot to do something in 2007-2009. Resigning Aurilia for 2006 at the cost of a draft pick does nothing but hinder our chances at success in that 2007-2009 timeline. Sure, it gives the Reds a better chance to win a handful more games in 2006, but does nothing to help us after 2006. Do you think he signed him just to trade him for a prospect? Hardly. I'm very confident a decently polished college player could have been had for that draft pick or a high ceiling high school player that could be pawned off as trade bait (read: a better prospect than anybody Aurilia would net in a trade this season).

    Folks, this GM is just looking to catch lightning in a bottle in 2006 just so he doesn't get canned. He's doing what he can to put a barely above .500 team out in the field in 2006, then proclaim that through an improvement over last season's 73 win total that he's leading the organization down the right path.

    Don't believe him.
    Last edited by Cyclone792; 01-13-2006 at 01:15 AM.
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  15. #44
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis
    and I don't care about DanO. He is dead to me. It is the "plan" to get rid of these problems, which is critical now.
    No, that isn't the "plan" now. We have no idea what sort of "plan" Castellini will seek to implement. We don't know whether he and those he intends to hire understand the fundamental problems the franchise faces or whether, like DanO, they've ignored the reality on the ground and intend to pursue more calamity.

    I don't care about DanO either, but you can bet I care about the current state of affairs. A new broom does not sweep this franchise clean. You can have a wholesale turnover in leadership, but what's wrong with the franchise at the player level will remain. Identifying the mistakes that have been made and the gravity of the situation are essential to inventing the cure.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  16. #45
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: What is the Reds' "Plan"

    Overall stellar post, Cyclone. Really good stuff, but I wanted to specifically highlight the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Short term goals = worse for Reds in the long term, but better for O'Brien's chances at saving his job
    Long term goals = better for Reds in the long term, but worse for O'Brien's chances at saving his job
    Yep. O'Brien has been working his five-year plan while on a three-year contract.

    The totality of O'Brien's five year plan was to have an amateur entry draft each year. But it's kind of hard to implement that plan (even if he was good at it) while doing so poorly with the MLB product that years four and five are a fantasy.

    And that's the problem I had with him in the first place. The guy has no track record of putting together a MLB product and was hired for a three-year looksee to determine how his five-year plan would be progressing.

    In the case of Encarnacion, the irony is that O'Brien sold his plan based on the idea that once prospects started to pop up out of the pipeline, the team would get better. So the Reds have a prospect who's been developed and now it appears he's not willing to allow said prospect to continue his development unhindered. Unless we assume that he'd be more trusting of "his" guys when they're ready (which I concede is a possibility), I see no reason to believe that the five-year plan would be anything but a 10-year plan in disguise. And worse, even if it really were a five-year plan, all he'd be doing is plugging holes with those prospects because he can't identify a solid MLB contributor to save his life.

    That's just mind-boggling. The guy comes in, sells Lindner and Co. on a complete blue sky "five-year" plan that can't possibly work in five years even if he were around to see it all come to fruition.

    What a great job-perpetuation snow job. Do the bare minimum every year in the hope that a stupid team will continue to renew your contract while you continually tell everyone to keep looking forward to a date on the calendar you'll just continue to push back as it approaches.

    Dan O'Brien is a living, breathing perpetuation of nothingness.
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