Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

[registerthis]

They actually would have made a nice catching tandem. Give Diaz about 110-120 starts and spot Taubensee in against tough RHPs. Diaz could sub defensively for when the team had a lead. Taubensee could PH for when the club was behind.

Yeah I don't disagree with that. But the whole topic here is undervalued players--players who played at a level higher than they are commonly credited for. Bo Diaz was a fine catcher--solid behind the plate, average at the plate. And bear in mind that I wasn't arguing for Taubensee here, either. I just don't think either of them are necessarily undervalued . Granted this argument is entirely subjective, but if given the choice between Diaz, Taubensee and LaRue--I'd take LaRue. It's why I included him on my list, but ommitted Diaz, Oliver and Taubensee.

[M2]

Yeah I don't disagree with that. But the whole topic here is undervalued players--players who played at a level higher than they are commonly credited for. Bo Diaz was a fine catcher--solid behind the plate, average at the plate. And bear in mind that I wasn't arguing for Taubensee here, either. I just don't think either of them are necessarily undervalued . Granted this argument is entirely subjective, but if given the choice between Diaz, Taubensee and LaRue--I'd take LaRue. It's why I included him on my list, but ommitted Diaz, Oliver and Taubensee.

I think most Reds fans consider anything sub-excellent at catcher to be horrible.

Diaz, for me, is a guy who made some important contributions when the franchise shook the monkey of '82-'84 off its back.

Anyway, I'm guessing that a lot of Reds fans, if they remember much of Diaz at all, would tell you he wasn't very good when in truth he was a solid player. I'd take LaRue too, but Diaz is a guy you don't hear a lot about who, IMO, deserves some remembrance.

Plus, like I mentioned, his '87 Strat card was supernatural.

[registerthis]

At least no one has mentioned Jeff Reed.

[WVJulz]

Soto too but that bunch he played with would have problems scoring in a bordello with a fistful of fifties. .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've never heard that one and I thought I had heard them all!!!!! Love it!

Julz

[Mario-Rijo]

I am basing my players on who is underrated from a Reds fans perspective. Because quite frankly the greatest Reds of the last 25 yrs were "underrated" by the "So-Called Experts" and general "Baseball" fans. I mean what Reds fan wouldn't take Barry Larkins career (w/ exception to the last few yrs. perhaps) over Ozzie Smiths. Please in my mind there was no better SS in the past 25 yrs. in any and all facets than BL, (Ripken was very close) until the babies came along (Jeter, A-Rod, Nomar and Tejada). But BL is far underrated by most, because of where he played. Had it been NY, CHi, Bos or LA they would have said that Jeter is Larkin-Esque.


That said here are my top 5.

1.) Jason Larue- K's too much and misses some past balls. But name another major weakness, not bad for an unheralded guy. And don't count calling a game until we have someone who can throw one.
2.) Joe Oliver- Somebody had to catch perhaps the best Reds staff top to bottom in history, not sure my memory only goes to around '83 or so. Plus w/o that game winner in the clutch we may not have a Wire-To-Wire WSC.
3.) Ron Oester- Look he was Casey before Casey when it came to passion for the game and desire to win. We would do well to have this solid a 2B right now!
4.) Scott Sullivan- Gave us alot of innings of solid pitching for a few years of competitive ball. When he went down so did the rest of the staff.
5.) Sean Casey- Look his offensive game when fully healthy was very good (unfortunately sometimes he wasn't fully healthy) And his defense for his level of talent was pretty solid.

[SteelSD]

I know the comparison to Schilling was a stretch.

I can see how Rijo could be better. In my mind Rijo is an ace too.

In my mind, a guy that gives you as many quality innings as Browning is an ace. If you'd guys rather call him a horse or an inning eater, that's ok..
But I highly value guys that can give you that many starts and innings year in and year out. IMO, the rest of you undervalue him

Guys like Browning get you to the playoffs. They can't dominate the playoffs like Rijo did, but they get you there and keep your bullpen fresh for the playoffs.

Jeff Weaver has put up consecutive seasons of 220+ IP and has done that three times in the last five years. During that time span, he's posted an ERA pretty near league average and is pretty much right there for his career (99 ERA+). Is Jeff Weaver an "ace"? Gosh no. Nor was Browning.

He was an Innings-eater who produced an ERA a titch above MLB average most of the time. The Innings volume moved him up from a high-level #3 starter to a decent #2 guy, but those Innings would have needed to be of significantly better quality to get him near an "ace" rating.

[cincinnati chili]

Jeff Weaver has put up consecutive seasons of 220+ IP and has done that three times in the last five years. During that time span, he's posted an ERA pretty near league average and is pretty much right there for his career (99 ERA+). Is Jeff Weaver an "ace"? Gosh no. Nor was Browning.

He was an Innings-eater who produced an ERA a titch above MLB average most of the time. The Innings volume moved him up from a high-level #3 starter to a decent #2 guy, but those Innings would have needed to be of significantly better quality to get him near an "ace" rating.

While I recognize your larger point about people's failure to recognize the merit of the innings-eater, Jeff Weaver has been pretty awful on the road over the last two years. He was awful for the Yankees the year before. I think his ERA would be a "titch" below suck if he'd pitched somewhere besides Dodger stadium.

There's a peter principle at work here. On the one hand, he can throw a lot of innings, so teams want to use him as a starter. On the other hand, he's ideally suited to middle relief where a manager can spot him against mostly right handed bats.

He's a rich man's Bronson Arroyo but much more of a pain in the ass.

[SteelSD]

While I recognize your larger point about people's failure to recognize the merit of the innings-eater, Jeff Weaver has been pretty awful on the road over the last two years. He was awful for the Yankees the year before. I think his ERA would be a "titch" below suck if he'd pitched somewhere besides Dodger stadium.

There's a peter principle at work here. On the one hand, he can throw a lot of innings, so teams want to use him as a starter. On the other hand, he's ideally suited to middle relief where a manager can spot him against mostly right handed bats.

He's a rich man's Bronson Arroyo but much more of a pain in the ass.

Oh, I agree with every word of that. I just grabbed the first guy who approximated the "average" numbers while I was looking through a list of NL IP leaders.

[HalMorrisRules]

My obvious #1 answer would be of course, Hal Morris. He had the sweetest swing and happiest feet.

I also always liked Frank Williams. He had that funky side armed delivery. Pitched 105 innings in 1987 with a 2.30 era. I always felt confident when he would come in a game.

Nick Esasky was the man. Very businesslike, just went out there and did his job.

And I will always have a special place in my heart for Wayne Krenchicki. Not for what he did on the field but because for some reason he was the best player on my 1985 Reds team in Microleague Baseball for my old Atari home computer. Must have been a programming bug because he would hit home run after home run for me.

[REDREAD]

Jeff Weaver has put up consecutive seasons of 220+ IP and has done that three times in the last five years. During that time span, he's posted an ERA pretty near league average and is pretty much right there for his career (99 ERA+). Is Jeff Weaver an "ace"? Gosh no. Nor was Browning.
.

I guess it depends how narrowly you define "ace". Some people define it so narrowly that there's only maybe 5 of them in the game at any one time. Or maybe 10.

I have a broader definition of the term, I guess. For example, if the Reds had a rotation of 5 Brownings (in his prime) last year, they make the playoffs, easily. Not only is the starting pitching upgraded tremendously, but the 5 Brownings eat so many innings you could easily get away with a 5 man bullpen, instead of the 12 man staff we are currently forced to carry. That's two extra position players you can carry, instead of two mop up guys.

But I can respect the opinion of people that have a much narrower definition of "Ace".. I'm not saying Browning should be in the HOF, just that many fans don't realize how valuable he was. In this thread alone, he's been called just slightly above average.

I also agree that Bo Diaz was a great catcher and undervalued.

[Roy Tucker]

(iirc Gullett had to call Taubensee's pitches for him)

This got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing).

The season tickets that I have are on a direct line from the catcher to the corner of the Reds dugout to me a few rows back. So when I'm at a game, I always notice when the Reds catcher glances over towards the dugout to get signs.

Seems that when Gullet was in the dugout, all catchers looked over 4 times out of 5 to get a pitch sign (I assume that's what they were doing).

But thinking back now to later in the season, I seem to recall noticing Larue no longer looked over to the dugout (or least not very often) and that he was calling his own game. And I was a little surprised.

Was this something that changed when Miley/Gullett got dumped? Since I lost interest closely watching the Reds late last season, I don't have enough data points to say.

[westofyou]

I guess it depends how narrowly you define "ace". Some people define it so narrowly that there's only maybe 5 of them in the game at any one time. Or maybe 10.

Let's define it like this then, 30 starts and a half a run better than the league in ERA.

From 1985-1991 the MLB had 185 seasons where a pitcher achieved that in the NL there were 81 seasons that a pitcher achieved it.

Browning isn't on the list.

ERA                           YEAR     ERA      GS       ERA       W        L      RSAA    
1    Dwight Gooden            1985     1.53       35     2.07       24        4       58   
2    John Tudor               1985     1.93       36     1.67       21        8       44   
3    Orel Hershiser           1985     2.03       34     1.57       19        3       33   
4    David Cone               1988     2.22       28     1.24       20        3       21   
5    Mike Scott               1986     2.22       37     1.50       18       10       47   
6    Orel Hershiser           1988     2.26       34     1.20       23        8       40   
7    Rick Reuschel            1985     2.27       26     1.33       14        8       32   
8    Scott Garrelts           1989     2.28       29     1.22       14        5       23   
9    Orel Hershiser           1989     2.31       33     1.19       15       15       25   
10   John Tudor               1988     2.32       30     1.13       10        8       28   
11   Dennis Martinez          1991     2.39       31     1.30       14       11       22   
12   Pascual Perez            1988     2.44       27     1.01       12        8       24   
13   Fernando Valenzuela      1985     2.45       35     1.15       17       10       25   
14   Jose Rijo                1991     2.51       30     1.18       15        6       35   
15   Zane Smith               1990     2.55       31     1.25       12        9       26   
16   Tom Glavine              1991     2.55       34     1.13       20       11       46   
17   Bob Ojeda                1986     2.57       30     1.16       18        5       22   
18   Ed Whitson               1990     2.60       32     1.20       14        9       33   
19   Tim Belcher              1991     2.62       33     1.06       10        9       26   
20   Ed Whitson               1989     2.66       33     0.85       16       11       22   
21   Frank Viola              1990     2.67       35     1.13       20       12       29   
22   Bruce Hurst              1989     2.69       33     0.82       15       11       23   
23   Jose Rijo                1990     2.70       29     1.10       14        8       24   
24   Pete Harnisch            1991     2.70       33     0.99       12        9       20   
25   Bob Walk                 1988     2.71       32     0.75       12       10       16   
26   Jose DeLeon              1991     2.71       28     0.98        5        9       14   
27   Dennis Martinez          1988     2.72       34     0.74       15       13       23   
28   Danny Jackson            1988     2.73       35     0.73       23        8       26   
29   Doug Drabek              1990     2.76       33     1.03       22        6       23   
30   Nolan Ryan               1987     2.76       34     1.32        8       16       23   
31   Mike Morgan              1991     2.78       33     0.91       14       10       25   
32   Doug Drabek              1989     2.80       34     0.70       14       12       12   
33   Sid Fernandez            1985     2.80       26     0.80        9        9       12   
34   John Smiley              1989     2.81       28     0.70       12        8       10   
35   Ron Darling              1986     2.81       34     0.92       15        6       17   
36   Tim Belcher              1989     2.82       30     0.68       15       12        9   
37   Sid Fernandez            1989     2.83       32     0.67       14        5       13   
38   Bryn Smith               1989     2.84       32     0.66       10       11       18   
39   Rick Rhoden              1986     2.84       34     0.89       15       12       26   
40   Dwight Gooden            1986     2.84       33     0.88       17        6       17   
41   Danny Cox                1985     2.88       35     0.72       18        9       13   
42   Bob Ojeda                1988     2.88       29     0.57       10       13        3   
43   Ron Darling              1985     2.90       35     0.70       16        6       14   
44   Danny Cox                1986     2.90       32     0.82       12       13       22   
45   Tim Belcher              1988     2.91       27     0.55       12        6       14   
46   Jim Deshaies             1989     2.91       34     0.59       15       10       17   
47   Tim Leary                1988     2.91       34     0.54       17       11       17   
48   Bryn Smith               1985     2.91       32     0.68       18        5       11   
49   Joe Magrane              1989     2.91       33     0.59       18        9       16   
50   John Tudor               1986     2.92       30     0.81       13        7       22   
51   Ramon Martinez           1990     2.92       33     0.88       20        6       18   
52   Jerry Reuss              1985     2.92       33     0.68       14       10        8   
53   Mike Scott               1988     2.92       32     0.53       14        8        7   
54   Oil Can Boyd             1990     2.93       31     0.87       10        6       14   
55   Dave Dravecky            1985     2.93       31     0.66       13       11       17   
56   Rick Reuschel            1989     2.94       32     0.56       17        8       10   
57   John Smoltz              1989     2.94       29     0.56       12       11       15   
58   Greg Maddux              1989     2.95       35     0.56       19       12       23   
59   Dennis Martinez          1990     2.95       32     0.85       10       11       17   
60   Randy Tomlin             1991     2.98       27     0.70        8        7       11   
61   Andy Benes               1991     3.03       33     0.66       15       11       15   
62   Mike Krukow              1986     3.05       34     0.68       20        9       13   
63   Orel Hershiser           1987     3.06       35     1.03       16       16       19   
64   Doug Drabek              1991     3.07       35     0.62       15       14       12   
65   John Smiley              1991     3.08       32     0.61       20        8       11   
66   Dennis Eckersley         1985     3.08       25     0.52       11        7       23   
67   Eric Show                1985     3.09       35     0.51       12       11       15   
68   Rick Reuschel            1987     3.09       33     0.99       13        9       27   
69   Bruce Hurst              1990     3.14       33     0.66       11        9       19   
70   Bob Knepper              1986     3.14       38     0.59       17       12       17   
71   Fernando Valenzuela      1986     3.14       34     0.58       21       11       11   
72   Bob Ojeda                1991     3.18       31     0.50       12        9       11   
73   Dwight Gooden            1987     3.21       25     0.88       15        7       16   
74   Bob Welch                1987     3.22       35     0.87       15        9       13   
75   David Cone               1990     3.23       30     0.57       14       10       11   
76   Mike Scott               1987     3.23       36     0.85       16       13       14   
77   Mike Harkey              1990     3.26       27     0.53       12        6       19   
78   Dave Dravecky            1987     3.43       28     0.65       10       12       10   
79   Joe Magrane              1987     3.54       26     0.55        9        7        8   
80   Atlee Hammaker           1987     3.58       27     0.50       10       10        5   
81   Danny Darwin             1987     3.59       30     0.50        9       10        3

[dfs]

1.) Jason Larue- K's too much and misses some past balls. But name another major weakness, not bad for an unheralded guy. And don't count calling a game until we have someone who can throw one.

I don't know what to say about this other than to say watching Jason LaRue behind the plate is almost as bad as watching WMP and Dunn in the outfield. Well, now that I think about it, yes, it is worse. There is hope that WMP will settle down and Dunn's problems certainly seemed to be attention related.

What I see when I watch Jason LaRue catch....
Jason LaRue doesn't set a target for his pitchers.
Jason LaRue doesn't frame the pitches well for the umpire.
Jason LaRue doesn't manage his pitchers on the field.
Jason LaRue doesn't throw particularly well anymore.
Jason LaRue waves his mit at anything in the dirt and the official scorer at GAB calls it a wild pitch. I swear I've seen balls bounce off Jason's chest protector called a wild pitch.

Watch for it and you'll see the same stuff. None of it is new. It's been going on since he came up. It seems impossible to me that 4 consecutive former catchers have managed Jason and nobody says boo about it. All that stuff looks small, but set it in the context of a team that can't get anybody out with K's or with the glove, and it looms huge.

Jason LaRue at the plate is an asset. He can hit for a catcher just fine, but Jason LaRue with the leather is part of the ongoing defensive/pitching problems that kill this roster as a major league team.

Jason LaRue is most certainly not under-rated.

sorry about that....back to your regularly scheduled web-board.

[max venable]

I also always liked Frank Williams. He had that funky side armed delivery. Pitched 105 innings in 1987 with a 2.30 era. I always felt confident when he would come in a game.

Frank Williams is a good choice.

[registerthis]

Jason LaRue at the plate is an asset. He can hit for a catcher just fine, but Jason LaRue with the leather is part of the ongoing defensive/pitching problems that kill this roster as a major league team.

Defensively, jason may not be a gold glove winner, but he's hardly as bad as you make him out to be--and he's far down on my laundry list of problems which this teams needs to address.

His arm and range are both fine. Jason was 4th in the NL in throwing out runners, at a 33% clip, for catchers with at least 900 innings. That's higher than the likes of Ramon Hernandez, Brad Ausmus and Damian Miller--and he threw more than they did, too, because Reds pitching isn't particularly adept at keeping runners on base. His range factor of 6.87 places him squarely in the middle of the pack of all NL catchers, as does his .993 fielding percentage. His 6 passed ball's last year were tied for the lowest in his career.

On a team with a pitching staff as putrid as the Reds have run out there the last several seasons, LaRue's level of play can hardly be the source of blame for the team's woes. As far as the subjective things you list--you're certainly entitled to those opinions, but I've not heard/read many complaints about the way that laRue handles the pitching staff, and having a debate about WP-PB is just pointless. Offensive and defensive consistency in a catcher is difficult to find, and LaRue fits that mold. The Reds are lucky to have him.