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Thread: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

  1. #31
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life
    I never thought of Kal Daniels as underrated, but he was my favorite player growing up.
    underrated might not be the best word. quietly forgotten might better describe him.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  3. #32
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    I would say Soto, Danny Jackson, Greg Vaughn and Jason LaRue.

    Soto, like Steel said, was absolutely one of th ebest pitchers in baseball during his prime. It's a shame he never got the support from his team that he deserved.

    Jackson was the pre-eminent starter on the team during the late 80s, and his 1988 season was truly a thing of beauty (as an example, try to imagine any Reds starter during the last 15 years throwing 15 complete games in one season.)

    Like Ochre, i think Greg Vaughn deserves consideration for his 1999 season. Just as the Reds were heading into the thick of the pennant race, vaughn was blistering hot--and he finished with an OPS > .880. Also, his 118 RBI were the most by a Red since Dave Parker garnered 125 of them in 1985, and his 45 HRs are the 5th-most all-time for a Red. Also interesting, people forget that Vaughn stole 15 bases in '99, at an 88% clip.

    Finally, LaRue has simply been one of the most consistent--and under-appreciated--catchers of the last 5 years. His numbers are never flashy or extraordinary, but the consistency he has shown while playing the most demanding position in the game is rare.

    Honorable mentions to Scott Sullivan, Jeff Brantley, Billy Hatcher and Mariano Duncan.
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  4. #33
    Hot Stove Season HotCorner's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Greg Vaughn

    The leadership role he had on that '99 team was impressive.

  5. #34
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    I just did, I don't see it at all, in fact I'll venture that he was not even the best Reds starter when he was a Red.

    .
    Thus, you support my arguement that he's underrated.

    from 1985-1986 and from 1988-1991 .. (1987 was a bad year for him, I forget why).. CG = complete games

    1985 ... 261 IP 3.55 ERA 38 starts
    1986 ..243 IP 3.81 ERA Led the lead with 39 starts. 4 CG
    1988.. 250 IP 3.41 ERA 36 starts 5 CG
    1989 .. 249 IP 3.39 ERA 37 starts (led league) 9 CG
    1990 .. 227 IP 3.80 ERA 35 starts, 2 CG
    1991 ... 230 IP, 4.18 ERA 36 starts 1 CG

    So you have a guy that gave 6 years in which he ate up a ton of innings and took the ball on his turn. Gave the Reds a ton of quality starts. I don't see what more you could want from an ace. Browning got results.

    Sure in 1990, Rijo had a better year (that's what everyone remembers). But Rijo was somewhat like Dibble.. dominating for a short period. I'd rather the farm crank out a Browning every year.

    If you compare Browning to Schilling, it's pretty close. Of course Schilling gets the edge because he had 10 very solid 180+ IP seasons, because his career wasn't cut short by injury like Browning.. and Schilling has an edge in raw numbers.. but it's not that far off. And Schilling is pretty much an undisputed ace.
    Last edited by REDREAD; 02-01-2006 at 02:32 PM.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  6. #35
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    Thus, you support my arguement that he's underrated.

    from 1985-1986 and from 1988-1991 .. (1987 was a bad year for him, I forget why).. CG = complete games

    1985 ... 261 IP 3.55 ERA 38 starts
    1986 ..243 IP 3.81 ERA Led the lead with 39 starts. 4 CG
    1988.. 250 IP 3.41 ERA 36 starts 5 CG
    1989 .. 249 IP 3.39 ERA 37 starts (led league) 9 CG
    1990 .. 227 IP 3.80 ERA 35 starts, 2 CG
    1991 ... 230 IP, 4.18 ERA 36 starts 1 CG

    So you have a guy that gave 6 years in which he ate up a ton of innings and took the ball on his turn. Gave the Reds a ton of quality starts. I don't see what more you could want from an ace. Browning got results.

    Sure in 1990, Rijo had a better year (that's what everyone remembers). But Rijo was somewhat like Dibble.. dominating for a short period. I'd rather the farm crank out a Browning every year.

    If you compare Browning to Schilling, it's pretty close. Of course Schilling gets the edge because he had 10 very solid 180+ IP seasons, because his career wasn't cut short by injury like Browning.. and Schilling has an edge in raw numbers.. but it's not that far off. And Schilling is pretty much an undisputed ace.
    See, I always considered Browning as a guy who was just about perfectly "rated". Always hung out pretty near league-average ERA. Super Innings-eater who seemed to be well-regarded as such. Good guy to have in your rotation of course, but definitely nowhere near ace-level.

    And Jose Rijo, while not having the Innings early or late during his Reds career, posted ERA+ numbers of 150, 127, 147, 151, 141, 163, and 134 over his first seven seasons with the club. Browning put up above-average ERA+ seasons five times. That's 1,315 IP for Rijo with an average ERA+ of 145 versus 1646 IP for Browning over his first 7 full seasons with the club with an average ERA+ of exactly 100 (league average). Browning, was about 25% more durable than Rijo (although Rijo's 1998 IP total was cut down by being in the pen for much of the first half of the season). But Rijo was about 50% better with a baseball in his hand during his 7 years versus Browning's same 7 years. Not the same 7 years, but both pitcher's careers effectively spanned the same amount of time with the Reds.

    And no, there's really no comparison between a guy like Browning and a dominant pitcher like Curt Schilling. Browning never posted an ERA+ above 107. Starting in 1995, Schilling produced 10 consecutive seasons where his ERA+ never fell below 121 and his average ERA+ during that time frame was 139.
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  7. #36
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Soto to me is one of the all-time Reds tragedies, perhaps ranking with Big Klu, of players who just played for the Reds at the wrong time and then were injured by the time help arrived.

    Soto
    Joe Oliver
    Milner (dude could go get it)
    Diaz
    Duncan
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  8. #37
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    1985 ... 261 IP 3.55 ERA 38 starts
    1986 ..243 IP 3.81 ERA Led the lead with 39 starts. 4 CG
    1988.. 250 IP 3.41 ERA 36 starts 5 CG
    1989 .. 249 IP 3.39 ERA 37 starts (led league) 9 CG
    1990 .. 227 IP 3.80 ERA 35 starts, 2 CG
    1991 ... 230 IP, 4.18 ERA 36 starts 1 CG
    Good numbers yes, but not ace material.

    Between 1985-1991 the Reds had 18 pitchers with 20 more starts. Browning hovered slightly above average and below average in ERA vs the league.

    But it's safe to say that every year but 1989 in that span Tom was the 2nd best starter on the staff and if you include some of the relievers he often fell down a notch there too.

    Code:
    CINCINNATI REDS
    SEASON
    1985-1991
    
    GAMES STARTED >= 20
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    ERA                           YEAR     DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     GS      RSAA    
    1    Jose Rijo                1991     1.18     2.51     3.69       30       35   
    2    Jose Rijo                1990     1.10     2.70     3.80       29       24   
    3    Danny Jackson            1988     0.73     2.73     3.45       35       26   
    4    Jack Armstrong           1990     0.38     3.42     3.80       27        7   
    5    Bill Gullickson          1986     0.34     3.38     3.73       37       14   
    6    Tom Browning             1989     0.11     3.39     3.50       37        8   
    7    Tom Browning             1985     0.05     3.55     3.60       38        6   
    8    Tom Browning             1988     0.04     3.41     3.45       36        6   
    9    Mario Soto               1985     0.02     3.58     3.60       36        5   
    10   Tom Browning             1990     0.00     3.80     3.80       35        0   
    11   Tom Browning             1986     -.08     3.81     3.73       39        3   
    12   Jay Tibbs                1985     -.32     3.92     3.60       34       -4   
    13   Rick Mahler              1989     -.33     3.83     3.50       31       -4   
    14   Ted Power                1987     -.41     4.50     4.09       34       -6   
    15   John Denny               1986     -.48     4.20     3.73       27       -6   
    16   Tom Browning             1991     -.49     4.18     3.69       36       -4   
    17   Bill Gullickson          1987     -.77     4.85     4.09       27      -11   
    18   Tom Browning             1987     -.93     5.02     4.09       31      -16
    But he also just made the Reds HOF, so he can't be underrated IMO.

  9. #38
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Soto to me is one of the all-time Reds tragedies, perhaps ranking with Big Klu, of players who just played for the Reds at the wrong time and then were injured by the time help arrived.

    Soto
    Joe Oliver
    Milner (dude could go get it)
    Diaz
    Duncan
    Joe Oliver and bo Diaz were always the definition of "vanilla" to me. They were just...there. Oliver played with the '90 WS team, and generally had a solid nucleus of players around him until the last couple years of his career ('96 and '97, when the reds started to hit bottom.) Still, ne never had a season that I would quantify as even "very good". He was merely average all the way.

    Ditto for Diaz, though he generally played on substantially worse teams. Nothing about him excited me very much.

    I agree about Soto and Duncan, though. (Although Duncan, too, was around in '90 and got himself a ring.)
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  10. #39
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Are we talking about the same Eddie Milner that patrolled the Reds OF in the mid-80's? From what I recall, in his best year, he was merely average.

    I guess it could be because he played next to such stellar OFs as Cesar Cedeno and Paul Householder, it made him look better.

    My vote for OF in that era would be for Gary Redus.

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  11. #40
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Are we talking about the same Eddie Milner that patrolled the Reds OK in the mid-80's? From what I recall, in his best year, he was merely average.
    Which makes him the black Harry Craft, Eddie's value was mostly in his glove, his 392 PO's in 1983 is 11th best in club history.

  12. #41
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Joe Oliver and bo Diaz were always the definition of "vanilla" to me. They were just...there. Oliver played with the '90 WS team, and generally had a solid nucleus of players around him until the last couple years of his career ('96 and '97, when the reds started to hit bottom.) Still, ne never had a season that I would quantify as even "very good". He was merely average all the way.

    Ditto for Diaz, though he generally played on substantially worse teams. Nothing about him excited me very much.
    They suffered from not being Johnny Bench.

    Oilver was your standard good receiver, but Diaz ranked 9th and 14th in catcher VORP in 1986 and 1987. He was a lot like LaRue in that he gave the team solid production at a position from which a lot of teams got nothing. He was easily the best post-Bench catcher to wear a Reds uni until Jason showed up. Plus, his '87 Strat card was a clutch-hitting marvel.
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  13. #42
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    I know the comparison to Schilling was a stretch.

    I can see how Rijo could be better. In my mind Rijo is an ace too.

    In my mind, a guy that gives you as many quality innings as Browning is an ace. If you'd guys rather call him a horse or an inning eater, that's ok..
    But I highly value guys that can give you that many starts and innings year in and year out. IMO, the rest of you undervalue him

    Guys like Browning get you to the playoffs. They can't dominate the playoffs like Rijo did, but they get you there and keep your bullpen fresh for the playoffs.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. #43
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    They suffered from not being Johnny Bench.

    Oilver was your standard good receiver, but Diaz ranked 9th and 14th in catcher VORP in 1986 and 1987. He was a lot like LaRue in that he gave the team solid production at a position from which a lot of teams got nothing. He was easily the best post-Bench catcher to wear a Reds uni until Jason showed up. Plus, his '87 Strat card was a clutch-hitting marvel.
    I must disagree, offensively at least. Eddie Tauubensee's 1999 season eclisped anything Diaz ever put up: 21 HRs, 87 RBI, .875 OPS (which includes a fantastic .521 slugging %). Diaz never OPS'ed more than .721 for the Reds during two full seasons and several partial years with them. Taubensee's OB % during '98 and '99 (.352 and .354) are both far better than Diaz's (.300 and .321).

    Where Diaz is superior is defense, unquestionably. But as far as complete players go, Diaz sits right about where he belongs--average.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  15. #44
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    I must disagree, offensively at least. Eddie Tauubensee's 1999 season eclisped anything Diaz ever put up: 21 HRs, 87 RBI, .875 OPS (which includes a fantastic .521 slugging %). Diaz never OPS'ed more than .721 for the Reds during two full seasons and several partial years with them. Taubensee's OB % during '98 and '99 (.352 and .354) are both far better than Diaz's (.300 and .321).

    Where Diaz is superior is defense, unquestionably. But as far as complete players go, Diaz sits right about where he belongs--average.
    Taubensee might have been as bad as you can be behind the plate and still play behind the plate. He wasn't a good receiver, pitchers hated the way he called games (iirc Gullett had to call Taubensee's pitches for him) and he couldn't have thrown himself out on an SB attempt. He was helpless back there if the other team decided to run in a close game. He was also a pure platoon hitter. That said, he could do some damage against RHPs. He might have made an effective discount platoon DH. He was a poor man's Matt Nokes or Dave Nilsson.

    Yet Bo Diaz made the Bill James list of top 100 catchers ever and his second and third best seasons (in terms of Win Shares) came in a Reds uniform.

    Diaz was a productive piece of two pretty good Reds teams ('86 and '87) and he helped fuel the team's late surge in '85. IMO, people underestimate just how much good an "average" catcher can do for a team. It's a hard job and guys who can handle the bat and give you something behind the plate are not common.

    If I were looking for a pinch hitter/spot catcher, I'd pick Taubensee. If I were looking for a regular catcher, make mine Baudilio.

    They actually would have made a nice catching tandem. Give Diaz about 110-120 starts and spot Taubensee in against tough RHPs. Diaz could sub defensively for when the team had a lead. Taubensee could PH for when the club was behind.
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  16. #45
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    Re: Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    I can see how Rijo could be better. In my mind Rijo is an ace too.
    Speaking of Rijo, was it just me or did the Reds have problems scoring runs when he was starting? Soto too but that bunch he played with would have problems scoring in a bordello with a fistful of fifties. Have there been studies done (calling WOY) that have shown whether the ace of a staff gets more, less or average run support? I realize the term "ace" is kind of subjective but it seems a lot of the time a team has trouble scoring runs for their ace.
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