underrated might not be the best word. quietly forgotten might better describe him.Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life
underrated might not be the best word. quietly forgotten might better describe him.Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
I would say Soto, Danny Jackson, Greg Vaughn and Jason LaRue.
Soto, like Steel said, was absolutely one of th ebest pitchers in baseball during his prime. It's a shame he never got the support from his team that he deserved.
Jackson was the pre-eminent starter on the team during the late 80s, and his 1988 season was truly a thing of beauty (as an example, try to imagine any Reds starter during the last 15 years throwing 15 complete games in one season.)
Like Ochre, i think Greg Vaughn deserves consideration for his 1999 season. Just as the Reds were heading into the thick of the pennant race, vaughn was blistering hot--and he finished with an OPS > .880. Also, his 118 RBI were the most by a Red since Dave Parker garnered 125 of them in 1985, and his 45 HRs are the 5th-most all-time for a Red. Also interesting, people forget that Vaughn stole 15 bases in '99, at an 88% clip.
Finally, LaRue has simply been one of the most consistent--and under-appreciated--catchers of the last 5 years. His numbers are never flashy or extraordinary, but the consistency he has shown while playing the most demanding position in the game is rare.
Honorable mentions to Scott Sullivan, Jeff Brantley, Billy Hatcher and Mariano Duncan.
We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.
Greg Vaughn
The leadership role he had on that '99 team was impressive.
Thus, you support my arguement that he's underrated.Originally Posted by westofyou
from 1985-1986 and from 1988-1991 .. (1987 was a bad year for him, I forget why).. CG = complete games
1985 ... 261 IP 3.55 ERA 38 starts
1986 ..243 IP 3.81 ERA Led the lead with 39 starts. 4 CG
1988.. 250 IP 3.41 ERA 36 starts 5 CG
1989 .. 249 IP 3.39 ERA 37 starts (led league) 9 CG
1990 .. 227 IP 3.80 ERA 35 starts, 2 CG
1991 ... 230 IP, 4.18 ERA 36 starts 1 CG
So you have a guy that gave 6 years in which he ate up a ton of innings and took the ball on his turn. Gave the Reds a ton of quality starts. I don't see what more you could want from an ace. Browning got results.
Sure in 1990, Rijo had a better year (that's what everyone remembers). But Rijo was somewhat like Dibble.. dominating for a short period. I'd rather the farm crank out a Browning every year.
If you compare Browning to Schilling, it's pretty close. Of course Schilling gets the edge because he had 10 very solid 180+ IP seasons, because his career wasn't cut short by injury like Browning.. and Schilling has an edge in raw numbers.. but it's not that far off. And Schilling is pretty much an undisputed ace.
Last edited by REDREAD; 02-01-2006 at 02:32 PM.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
See, I always considered Browning as a guy who was just about perfectly "rated". Always hung out pretty near league-average ERA. Super Innings-eater who seemed to be well-regarded as such. Good guy to have in your rotation of course, but definitely nowhere near ace-level.Originally Posted by REDREAD
And Jose Rijo, while not having the Innings early or late during his Reds career, posted ERA+ numbers of 150, 127, 147, 151, 141, 163, and 134 over his first seven seasons with the club. Browning put up above-average ERA+ seasons five times. That's 1,315 IP for Rijo with an average ERA+ of 145 versus 1646 IP for Browning over his first 7 full seasons with the club with an average ERA+ of exactly 100 (league average). Browning, was about 25% more durable than Rijo (although Rijo's 1998 IP total was cut down by being in the pen for much of the first half of the season). But Rijo was about 50% better with a baseball in his hand during his 7 years versus Browning's same 7 years. Not the same 7 years, but both pitcher's careers effectively spanned the same amount of time with the Reds.
And no, there's really no comparison between a guy like Browning and a dominant pitcher like Curt Schilling. Browning never posted an ERA+ above 107. Starting in 1995, Schilling produced 10 consecutive seasons where his ERA+ never fell below 121 and his average ERA+ during that time frame was 139.
"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer
"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams
Soto to me is one of the all-time Reds tragedies, perhaps ranking with Big Klu, of players who just played for the Reds at the wrong time and then were injured by the time help arrived.
Soto
Joe Oliver
Milner (dude could go get it)
Diaz
Duncan
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
Good numbers yes, but not ace material.1985 ... 261 IP 3.55 ERA 38 starts
1986 ..243 IP 3.81 ERA Led the lead with 39 starts. 4 CG
1988.. 250 IP 3.41 ERA 36 starts 5 CG
1989 .. 249 IP 3.39 ERA 37 starts (led league) 9 CG
1990 .. 227 IP 3.80 ERA 35 starts, 2 CG
1991 ... 230 IP, 4.18 ERA 36 starts 1 CG
Between 1985-1991 the Reds had 18 pitchers with 20 more starts. Browning hovered slightly above average and below average in ERA vs the league.
But it's safe to say that every year but 1989 in that span Tom was the 2nd best starter on the staff and if you include some of the relievers he often fell down a notch there too.
But he also just made the Reds HOF, so he can't be underrated IMO.Code:CINCINNATI REDS SEASON 1985-1991 GAMES STARTED >= 20 RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria ERA YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE GS RSAA 1 Jose Rijo 1991 1.18 2.51 3.69 30 35 2 Jose Rijo 1990 1.10 2.70 3.80 29 24 3 Danny Jackson 1988 0.73 2.73 3.45 35 26 4 Jack Armstrong 1990 0.38 3.42 3.80 27 7 5 Bill Gullickson 1986 0.34 3.38 3.73 37 14 6 Tom Browning 1989 0.11 3.39 3.50 37 8 7 Tom Browning 1985 0.05 3.55 3.60 38 6 8 Tom Browning 1988 0.04 3.41 3.45 36 6 9 Mario Soto 1985 0.02 3.58 3.60 36 5 10 Tom Browning 1990 0.00 3.80 3.80 35 0 11 Tom Browning 1986 -.08 3.81 3.73 39 3 12 Jay Tibbs 1985 -.32 3.92 3.60 34 -4 13 Rick Mahler 1989 -.33 3.83 3.50 31 -4 14 Ted Power 1987 -.41 4.50 4.09 34 -6 15 John Denny 1986 -.48 4.20 3.73 27 -6 16 Tom Browning 1991 -.49 4.18 3.69 36 -4 17 Bill Gullickson 1987 -.77 4.85 4.09 27 -11 18 Tom Browning 1987 -.93 5.02 4.09 31 -16
Joe Oliver and bo Diaz were always the definition of "vanilla" to me. They were just...there. Oliver played with the '90 WS team, and generally had a solid nucleus of players around him until the last couple years of his career ('96 and '97, when the reds started to hit bottom.) Still, ne never had a season that I would quantify as even "very good". He was merely average all the way.Originally Posted by traderumor
Ditto for Diaz, though he generally played on substantially worse teams. Nothing about him excited me very much.
I agree about Soto and Duncan, though. (Although Duncan, too, was around in '90 and got himself a ring.)
We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.
Are we talking about the same Eddie Milner that patrolled the Reds OF in the mid-80's? From what I recall, in his best year, he was merely average.
I guess it could be because he played next to such stellar OFs as Cesar Cedeno and Paul Householder, it made him look better.
My vote for OF in that era would be for Gary Redus.
She used to wake me up with coffee ever morning
Which makes him the black Harry Craft, Eddie's value was mostly in his glove, his 392 PO's in 1983 is 11th best in club history.Are we talking about the same Eddie Milner that patrolled the Reds OK in the mid-80's? From what I recall, in his best year, he was merely average.
They suffered from not being Johnny Bench.Originally Posted by registerthis
Oilver was your standard good receiver, but Diaz ranked 9th and 14th in catcher VORP in 1986 and 1987. He was a lot like LaRue in that he gave the team solid production at a position from which a lot of teams got nothing. He was easily the best post-Bench catcher to wear a Reds uni until Jason showed up. Plus, his '87 Strat card was a clutch-hitting marvel.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
I know the comparison to Schilling was a stretch.
I can see how Rijo could be better. In my mind Rijo is an ace too.
In my mind, a guy that gives you as many quality innings as Browning is an ace. If you'd guys rather call him a horse or an inning eater, that's ok..
But I highly value guys that can give you that many starts and innings year in and year out. IMO, the rest of you undervalue him
Guys like Browning get you to the playoffs. They can't dominate the playoffs like Rijo did, but they get you there and keep your bullpen fresh for the playoffs.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
I must disagree, offensively at least. Eddie Tauubensee's 1999 season eclisped anything Diaz ever put up: 21 HRs, 87 RBI, .875 OPS (which includes a fantastic .521 slugging %). Diaz never OPS'ed more than .721 for the Reds during two full seasons and several partial years with them. Taubensee's OB % during '98 and '99 (.352 and .354) are both far better than Diaz's (.300 and .321).Originally Posted by M2
Where Diaz is superior is defense, unquestionably. But as far as complete players go, Diaz sits right about where he belongs--average.
We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.
Taubensee might have been as bad as you can be behind the plate and still play behind the plate. He wasn't a good receiver, pitchers hated the way he called games (iirc Gullett had to call Taubensee's pitches for him) and he couldn't have thrown himself out on an SB attempt. He was helpless back there if the other team decided to run in a close game. He was also a pure platoon hitter. That said, he could do some damage against RHPs. He might have made an effective discount platoon DH. He was a poor man's Matt Nokes or Dave Nilsson.Originally Posted by registerthis
Yet Bo Diaz made the Bill James list of top 100 catchers ever and his second and third best seasons (in terms of Win Shares) came in a Reds uniform.
Diaz was a productive piece of two pretty good Reds teams ('86 and '87) and he helped fuel the team's late surge in '85. IMO, people underestimate just how much good an "average" catcher can do for a team. It's a hard job and guys who can handle the bat and give you something behind the plate are not common.
If I were looking for a pinch hitter/spot catcher, I'd pick Taubensee. If I were looking for a regular catcher, make mine Baudilio.
They actually would have made a nice catching tandem. Give Diaz about 110-120 starts and spot Taubensee in against tough RHPs. Diaz could sub defensively for when the team had a lead. Taubensee could PH for when the club was behind.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Speaking of Rijo, was it just me or did the Reds have problems scoring runs when he was starting? Soto too but that bunch he played with would have problems scoring in a bordello with a fistful of fifties. Have there been studies done (calling WOY) that have shown whether the ace of a staff gets more, less or average run support? I realize the term "ace" is kind of subjective but it seems a lot of the time a team has trouble scoring runs for their ace.Originally Posted by REDREAD
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