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Thread: Reading between the lines

  1. #31
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    For DePodesta to succeed somewhere, he'll need ownership that supports him fully, something he obviously didn't get in L.A. Initially, he seemed just what McCourt needed -- someone who could get results while cutting the payroll, necessary because of all the money McCourt borrowed to buy the team. But McCourt was, alas, just another guy in it for the image boost. If everything about your franchise is PR, then simply being a whipping boy in the media is enough to get a GM fired, whether or not the whipping was deserved.

    There's one other thing DePodesta will need. Overcoming the ingrained resistance within baseball to Full Moneyball requires a lot of internal educating and, if necessary, force. Both Sandy Alderson (ex-Marine) and Billy Beane (ex-major leaguer who can throw temper tantrums with the best) were able to bend the A's to their will. DePodesta didn't, or couldn't, in L.A. That's something HE must do in his next job. You can't lead if no one's following.
    Last edited by IslandRed; 02-03-2006 at 02:43 PM.
    Not all who wander are lost

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  3. #32
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed
    There's one other thing DePodesta will need. Overcoming the ingrained resistance within baseball to Full Moneyball requires a lot of internal educating and, if necessary, force. Both Sandy Alderson (ex-Marine) and Billy Beane (ex-major leaguer who can throw temper tantrums with the best) were able to bend the A's to their will. DePodesta didn't, or couldn't, in L.A. That's something HE must do in his next job. You can't lead if no one's following.
    I think one of the overlooked strengths of Beane is that very few people want him pissed off and near them. A little bit of intimidaton isn't a bad thing. There's a type of guy that falls in line when an alpha male walks into the room or at the very least they need to see that you won't take much guff from them.

    He's a convincer.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  4. #33
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    DePodesta's biggest (and possibly only) problem was that Tommy Lasorda didn't like him. I don't know why -- maybe he was watching "Fletch" on DVD and laughing a little too hard at the "I hate Tommy Lasorda" part. But for whatever reason, he was never given a chance. His success was ignored, and his failures were amplified.

    Saying he "wasn't good at office politics" is just a politically correct way to say he wouldn't kiss up to Lasorda.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 02-03-2006 at 05:41 PM.
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  5. #34
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    DePodesta's biggest (and possibly only) problem was that Tommy Lasorda didn't like him. I don't know why -- maybe he was watching "Fletch" on DVD and laughing a little too hard at the "I hate Tommy Lasorda" part. But for whatever reason, he was never given a chance. His success was ignored, and his failures were amplified.

    Saying he "wasn't good at office politics" is just a politically correct way to say he wouldn't kiss up to Lasorda.
    He didn't kiss up to Lasorda, but he didn't cut out the cancer, either. I can't help thinking that if it had been Beane as GM, Lasorda would have been thrown out of the front office in short order -- and maybe not metaphorically -- forcing ownership to resolve the power struggle sooner rather than later.
    Not all who wander are lost

  6. #35
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Is it a fact that DePodesta hasn't been contacted by the Reds? I don't think we know that for sure. I would think that it is highly unlikely, but still possible and I could see DePodesta as the type that would want to keep it quite if he wasn't interested.

    I still think that Beattie will be the next Reds GM.

    As far as DePo and LA, he had no chance to succeed. He was wanted out before he even started. They have the guy they wanted all along, if not in person, in type.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  7. #36
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    DePo was unbelievably naive in the politics of the job.
    Depo was not naive, he was clueless. Though he was a brilliant statistician he was a terrible communicator. TERRIBLE. No one around him had any idea what was going on, be it his employer, his asst., the media, the people he was trying to trade with...Where O'Brien couldnt stomach pulling the trigger, Depo couldnt stomach answering his phone. Team isnt limited to the field, it occurs within the front office too. You have to build consenus, and be able to make your case within the organization to keep everyone on board and moving in the same direction. Depodesta was incapable of that.

    Everyteam should have a number cruncher, the Reds have a few, but numbers can lie. If I guy can throw heat, but mechanically is killing his arm then a year from now, or 5 years from now those numbers mean squat. Or if he simply sets his employees on fire in a foreign land. You need to have evaluaters of all kinds to win.

  8. #37
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjwagner
    Depo was not naive, he was clueless. Though he was a brilliant statistician he was a terrible communicator. TERRIBLE. No one around him had any idea what was going on, be it his employer, his asst., the media, the people he was trying to trade with...Where O'Brien couldnt stomach pulling the trigger, Depo couldnt stomach answering his phone. Team isnt limited to the field, it occurs within the front office too. You have to build consenus, and be able to make your case within the organization to keep everyone on board and moving in the same direction. Depodesta was incapable of that.
    Where is your information coming from?

    I fail to see how so many transactions got done had DePo never answered his phone. I fail to see why DePo would care to talk to a media that had it out for him from day one. I fail to see why a "consensus" or how "keeping everyone on board" would be relevant when they were dead-set against doing anything but nuking the ship's captain- even after he demonstrated that he could put a playoff team on the field.

    You're making a lot of brash claims that that could only be made if you were a fly on the wall in that Dodgers front office. And a high-level fly to boot.

    Therefore, I ask again- Where is your information coming from?
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  9. #38
    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    If it means anything,Ben Maller, a Fox Sports Radio host and die-hard Dodger fan, claims that Frank McCourt's trophy wife didn't like Depo at all. I also heard the same thing about Lasorda. In any case, DePo was railroaded by his own organization and anti- moneyball media honks. It's that simple.

    Imho, he was unfairly criticized for roster moves. Granted, the signing of Jose Valentin and the trade of Dave Roberts for a AAAA Roberts clone at a time when
    Roberts would have fetched much-needed-at the time- bullpen help were head scratchers. But produced no long-term negative ramifications.

    J.D Drew produces when healthy, so it's not like he threw 55 million at Eric Milton.
    Also, the payroll is higher now than it ever was in 2004 and 2005, although the Dodgers' farm system is deep enough to backfill positions, thereby lowering payroll in future years.

    DePodesta knows what he is doing and will get another shot.

    The Reds would be fortunate to land a G.M of his caliber.

  10. #39
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    if you have ever heard Depo speak you would not claim he couldn't communicate....he expresses his ideas well.

    he got sabotaged by everyone in a sick, dysfunctional organization. sometimes it's just possible that things are so sick that a healthy indiividual ends up looking like a failure cause everyone around him is working overtime to curry with the owner. there was absolutely no chain of command in that organization....all kinds of folks were speaking out of turn.

    no one will last more than 2 years in that kind of environment.

  11. #40
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Moneyball is not about stats. I agree that the REDS need to use a Moneyball style philosophy but moneyball is not about stats. Its about identifying where there is a natural arbitrage situation in that a player is undervalued compared to where his skills and performance would be. Stats are one part but not all of it. Moneyball is not a pure numbers game, you have to combine an understanding of both. Scouting will tell you more than the numbers can.

    Back to the Dodgers situation last year - yes they had injuries but it should not have crippled their chance to win a division in which I point out the winner went 82-80. Yes they won the division the year before and part of that was DePo's doing. And I don't think that DePo by himself moved enough money say to McCourt that they had enough money to buy J.D. Drew and Derek Lowe. From memory and I could be wrong I think they also brought in Jeff Kent as well.They also had breakthrough outfielder so the Dodgers were in a decent situation. They had smoe injuries but it did not blow up their whole roster. Also some of the injuries that occurred were well known risks on those players (which would have been evident from scouting).

  12. #41
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Nugget
    Back to the Dodgers situation last year - yes they had injuries but it should not have crippled their chance to win a division in which I point out the winner went 82-80. Yes they won the division the year before and part of that was DePo's doing. And I don't think that DePo by himself moved enough money say to McCourt that they had enough money to buy J.D. Drew and Derek Lowe. From memory and I could be wrong I think they also brought in Jeff Kent as well.They also had breakthrough outfielder so the Dodgers were in a decent situation. They had smoe injuries but it did not blow up their whole roster. Also some of the injuries that occurred were well known risks on those players (which would have been evident from scouting).
    I don't think you realize the magnitude of the injuries. There isn't a team anywhere that could possibly withstand that injury hit. What you're suggesting is nigh-impossible- particularly while a GM is asked to reduce payroll. And no, they did not have a "breakthrough outfielder". In fact, DePodesta had to pick up @180 PA of Jose Cruz Jr. just to populate an OF that was decimated by injuries.

    Secondly, the Dodgers entered 2004 with an 89M dollar payroll. They entered 2005 with an 81M dollar payroll.

    Not sure what you think happened there, but it wasn't eight million bucks vanishing into thin air. It was DePodesta's doing.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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  13. #42
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Not sure what you think happened there, but it wasn't eight million bucks vanishing into thin air. It was DePodesta's doing.

    He used it to pay off the referees in the Super Bowl.

    That evil bastard.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  14. #43
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    He used it to pay off the referees in the Super Bowl.

    That evil bastard.
    As a Seahawk fan for over 20 years, if I find out that this is true....I'd still want him as the Reds' GM, but I'd find his car in the parking lot and let the air out.

    That'd learn him.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  15. #44
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    You're a hell raiser Raisor
    Go Gators!

  16. #45
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Reading between the lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor
    As a Seahawk fan for over 20 years, if I find out that this is true....I'd still want him as the Reds' GM, but I'd find his car in the parking lot and let the air out.

    That'd learn him.
    You could also steal his radio antenna so that he gets bad radio reception in his car. He'd never try to buy a referee again.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.


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