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Thread: Pecota?

  1. #46
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili
    I would argue that it is "made better" in the annuals, where the writers say "he'll outhit that Pecota projection because of x, y and z."
    Sure. But certain assumptions guide the computer projections--can they be fined down? Predictions aren't just "objective stats."

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  3. #47
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Pecota?

    There were a LOT of people on this board who said that Pena should be released just to clear up a roster spot (not saying it was FCB, cuz I don't remember).

    I never advocated that, but I did strongly advise the Reds to trade him to a team like Tampa Bay a few years back. I figured any team playing 4 or 5 "rule 5" guys could find playing time for the guy.

    I always thought Pena had a shot to improve, but not without substantial playing time. I'm very impressed he's made it this far, given how little time he got early on.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  4. #48
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    From minute one, I've said he'd not get his OBP over .325 at the MLB unless his game totally changes. I've been dead right the whole time. I honestly have no idea where you got the "dead at AA" prediction. Honestly, if being a league average leftfielder means a player's "miles ahead" of my predictions, then so be it--I'm nuts.

    People were calling for longterm contracts for the guy at the All-Star break last season. Good thing no one listened.

    He may have a Guillen-esque season somewhere down the line, but it's not happened yet, and probably won't happen this year unless his game changes. At 24 (not really young anymore for an offensive player), I'm not banking on it.

    But again, my point isn't solely about Pena--it's about making predictions based upon performance and less on "comparable" players.
    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you in favor of cutting Pena at one point? I remember you insisting there's no way he'd do anything mildly productive prior to the 2004 season.

    His game doesn't need to change. He just needs to mature a bit. Want a comp of a very similar player to Pena, here you go:

    http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/ron-gant.shtml

    If you're league average at 22 and 23, then you're likely to get a whole lot better in your mid-20s. At least, that's what a rational conclusion would look like. Maybe PECOTA's a year early on his OB. It was last season, but you seem to be complaining that no one goes in and hand-adjusts what's supposed to be an automated system. The system pretty much assumes people will pick up where it left off.

    Anyway, here's what I figure for Pena -- his OB will rise in the wake of his HR totals. If the kid hits 30+ HR next year, he'll post his best OB ever. If he hits 40+ HR, then he's a good bet to crack the .350 barrier.
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  5. #49
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2

    If you're league average at 22 and 23, then you're likely to get a whole lot better in your mid-20s.
    Why? Particularly in light of the fact that Pena didn't take a step forward in any way last season. Why should one assume improvement under these circumstances?

    And I'm not asking for "hand-adjustments," just predictions that get within a country-mile of accuracy. Which the 2005 PECOTA were disastrously off the mark for the Reds. Why is that? Is that not a question worth asking?

    I'm asking for a better projector. I don't know how to make one; but I know when the crystal ball is slathered in vaseline.

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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Why? Particularly in light of the fact that Pena didn't take a step forward in any way last season. Why should one assume improvement under these circumstances?

    And I'm not asking for "hand-adjustments," just predictions that get within a country-mile of accuracy. Which the 2005 PECOTA were disastrously off the mark for the Reds. Why is that? Is that not a question worth asking?

    I'm asking for a better projector. I don't know how to make one; but I know when the crystal ball is slathered in vaseline.
    It's not always linear. Adam Dunn stumbled back a step in 2003 (not coincidentally at age 23). I assume improvement for Pena will come sooner or later because it comes for most every player. He's got a good attitude and work ethic so atmospherics don't seem likely to hold him back.

    As for why players get better as they move into their mid-20s, the simple answer is physical maturity. The even simpler answer is who cares, they just do.

    Anyway, I'm guessing you'd find that if you took the Reds projections in total from last year and averaged them out it would land somewhere near where the team averages fell for the season. Yeah you'll miss some on the high side (Kearns) and others on the low side (Lopez), but the goal of a system is to find the middle. What you're asking for is something that predicts most every swing. I'm sure folks will keep hunting for such a thing, but IMO it's a philosophical trap to seek a broad system that does a bang-up job at the individual level.
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  7. #51
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    And I'm not asking for "hand-adjustments," just predictions that get within a country-mile of accuracy. Which the 2005 PECOTA were disastrously off the mark for the Reds. Why is that?
    Well, right there you're exaggerating. Country mile?

    Can you cite one single publication that projected a breakout year for FeLo? I can't. How about the collapse of Austin Kearns?

    So pecota predicted Wily Mo would improve. He slipped a bit. Big deal.

    By the way, rotowire.com is projecting a .279/.326/.545 for Pena this year (a 75 point improvement in OPS).

    Also, I'm misrepresenting Pecota by saying that it "projects" anything. It gives probabilities and percentiles and weighted means. The Reds' projections posted here are the weighted means. There is a also a collapse rate, breakout rate, etc.

    Perhaps, you'll say this is an example of being on the fence. But I think this is a lot more honest method than any other type of projection system.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

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    Re: Pecota?

    By the way, rotowire.com is projecting a .279/.326/.545 for Pena this year (a 75 point improvement in OPS).
    .259/.311/.497 from Bill James Handbook (Last year it was .253/.303/.491)

    He ended up with .254/.304/.492

  9. #53
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    It's not always linear. Adam Dunn stumbled back a step in 2003 (not coincidentally at age 23). I assume improvement for Pena will come sooner or later because it comes for most every player. He's got a good attitude and work ethic so atmospherics don't seem likely to hold him back.
    The problem I see with this comparison is that even when Dunn took a step backwards in 2003, he retained his plate discipline -- taking 74 BBs on 469 PAs (averaging a BB every 6.3 PAs -- near his career average of 6.03 PAs/BB). Pena has never displayed that kind of discipline at the dish, posting only 20 BBs in 335 PAs (averaging a BB every 16.75 PAs) in 2005. Considering his minor league numbers as well, it seems to me that Pena has yet to display the ability to walk at a level that would allow him to raise his OBP significantly from where it currently stands, in the very-low .300s.

    He's always been known for his prodigious power, and pitchers have stayed away from offering up fastballs in the zone over the last season +. It's now up to Pena to prove that he can tell the difference between a breaking ball out of the zone and a fastball down the middle -- so far he's yet to show me anything that would indicate he's got that one figured out.
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    The problem I see with this comparison is that even when Dunn took a step backwards in 2003, he retained his plate discipline -- taking 74 BBs on 469 PAs (averaging a BB every 6.3 PAs -- near his career average of 6.03 PAs/BB). Pena has never displayed that kind of discipline at the dish, posting only 20 BBs in 335 PAs (averaging a BB every 16.75 PAs) in 2005. Considering his minor league numbers as well, it seems to me that Pena has yet to display the ability to walk at a level that would allow him to raise his OBP significantly from where it currently stands, in the very-low .300s.

    He's always been known for his prodigious power, and pitchers have stayed away from offering up fastballs in the zone over the last season +. It's now up to Pena to prove that he can tell the difference between a breaking ball out of the zone and a fastball down the middle -- so far he's yet to show me anything that would indicate he's got that one figured out.
    Dunn and Pena are different animals. Pena retained the essential nature of his game -- inhuman power -- when he took a step back in 2005. To me that's the main thing. The core of Pena's future success never left him.

    Just as part of the natural experience/maturation process he's going to hit more balls harder in the future. Once upon a time Eric Davis and Reggie Sanders primarily feasted on fastballs. Then as they got older they transitioned into hitters who punished breaking stuff. They had more patience that Pena too, but Pena's got more power.

    I don't worry about his pitch selection. Every hitter works on that. And because of the power I don't worry about the OB too much. When his muscle begins to overwhelm offerings in the strikezone on a slightly more regular basis, a better OB will follow.
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    It's just a tool. Kinda like Raisor.

    Use it at your discretion.

    HEEEEYY!!

    Wait one darn minute!
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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor
    HEEEEYY!!

    Wait one darn minute!


    I'm sorry. I should have said a POWER tool.

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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    I'm sorry. I should have said a POWER tool.

    A chainsaw of observation, wit and wisdom. Yeah. That's what I meant.

    About time you showed up, anyway.

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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili

    Can you cite one single publication that projected a breakout year for FeLo? I can't.

    .
    Steel predicted it. And had damn good reasons to defend his prediction.

    And I'd say missing a bunch of players by .100 points of OPS is missing by a country mile. If the metaphor doesn't suit you, come up with another.

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    Re: Pecota?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili
    There were a LOT of people on this board who said that Pena should be released just to clear up a roster spot
    I was, and I stand my it, my thinking at the time was he wasn't going to develop for us sitting on the bench, he needed time in the minors we weren't going to get him, I was in favor of dumping him so we could A have someone else on the bench who might do better as a bench player and B so he could develop for someone else.

    Then people got hurt and he got some playing time...things change
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    Re: Pecota?

    FWIW here's an article on PECOTA from the end of the season.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=4482
    September 28, 2005
    Lies, Damned Lies
    Beaten Down by PECOTA

    by Nate Silver

    Will Carroll, Paul Swydan and I were batting around various types of BP-branded All-Star teams on our internal listserv this week--look for more of these coming soon--and naturally the idea of an All-PECOTA team came up. The idea is to identify those players who have most exceeded their PECOTA projections (ďBeat PECOTAĒ), as measured by actual VORP, less VORP as projected in the very last iteration of our preseason depth charts. In some cases, these will be players who had ridiculous fluke seasons, in others, guys who made some important changes in their game, and in others still, players whom PECOTA went short on and simply got burned. Well also want to look, of course, at those players who most underperformed their PECOTAs--what I call the Beaten Down by PECOTA Team.

    The PECOTA All-Star teams donít include any pitchers. Pitchers have unexpected seasons all the time--thatís the nature of the beast--but usually the stories behind them arenít very interesting: "he was hit-lucky," "he blew out his labrum," "Leo Mazzone." Iíd rather explore the hitters in more detail than put out a series of bullet points. Iím aware that the season is not quite over; VORP figures are taken through Sunday nightís games.

    Catcher
    Beat PECOTA: Michael Barrett, Cubs (+15.2 VORP differential); Jason LaRue, Reds (+15.2)
    Beaten Down: J.D. Closser, Rockies (-21.4 VORP differential)


    Itís been a rough year for catchers. One of the more telling statistics that Iíve seen this season is the one that was flashed on the U.S. Cellular scoreboard last Tuesday: "Victor Martinez leads AL Catchers with 74 RBI." Martinez has since increased that number to 78, which is somehow good enough not only to lead the AL, but also all of baseball--the runners up are Jason Varitek and Jorge Posada, who are tied at 69 as of this writing. Although Martinez (+11.7) and Varitek (+11.9) have had good seasons, these are countered by the disappointing years of Ivan Rodriguez (-15.4), Javy Lopez (-14.2), and Jason Kendall (-14.4) among others--this in spite of the fact that PECOTA recognizes the aging problems that past-peak catchers encounter and had notably conservative projections for all of them.

    A stroll through our league positional averages reports tells an interesting story. Twenty years ago or so, catchers out-hit shortstops by a fair margin; thatís actually been true for most of baseballís history. Now the reverse is the case. Some of that is the presence of players like Derek Jeter and Miguel Tejada--guys who might have wound up at third base before Cal Ripken changed the precedent--but thereís also reason to believe that the job of being a catcher is becoming more difficult. Iím not talking about controlling the running game, a relatively minor component of todayís game. Iím talking about the catching part itself. Pitchers are throwing more pitches than they used to, fewer of those pitches are being hit into play, and the pitches are more likely to be thrown faster or with funkier movement (e.g., split-finger fastballs). Being a catcher is more taxing than it used to be, and thereís less room for error--and catchers are paying the price with their offense.

    With that tangent out of the way, we should give our due to Barrett and LaRue. To think that Cub and Redleg fans thought they had no reason to watch their teams play out the schedule! LaRueís story isnít particularly interesting--a veteran having a modest career year in a down season for the position. Barrett, on the other hand, is one of those players that might ďbreakĒ PECOTA. As I mentioned in Barrettís player comment in this yearís annual, while thereís generally nothing important that happens when a player switches organizations, there may be some exceptions. Barrett escaped a toxic environment in Montreal and a manager who didnít believe in him for a notably more stable milieu in Chicago, and has responded by finally living up to his minor-league potential.

    Closser was a worthwhile experiment in Colorado, but itís turned out terribly; a .220/.316/.375 batting line for a catcher with marginal defensive abilities would be problematic in Shea Stadium, let alone Coors Field. Heís also one of those guys that had a ton of variation in his PECOTA forecast, as is typical for players that reach the majors a bit late--his 90th percentile EqA was .316, and his 10th percentile EqA, .211. As barren as the Rockiesí organization is, they can probably afford to give him another 250 PA, but theyíll need to have a better contingency plan than Danny Ardoin in place.

    First Base
    Beat PECOTA: Derrek Lee, Cubs (+61.0)
    Beaten Down: Jim Thome, Phillies (-55.8).
    Non-Injury Division: Hee Seop Choi, Dodgers (-33.2).


    PECOTA thought very favorably of Lee, giving him a 21.6% breakout rate, though of course his production this season has exceeded even its wildest expectations. The lesson here is that if youíre looking for mid-career breakout candidates, the combination of good secondary attributes (speed, defense, body type) and a very clean bill of health is a powerful one. Lee fits this profile perfectly; so do Andruw Jones and Alex Rodriguez. Itís no coincidence that the one time BP really kicked some butt in Tout Wars NL is the year the draft was held in Chicago, and Will Carroll and I got to team up.

    I wonít say much about Jim Thome, other than that the Phillies are going to have one hell of an interesting situation on their hands next spring. Choiís numbers have not been terrible, and the foul there probably belongs with PECOTA, which anticipated a huge breakout. Subjectively speaking, given how Choiís numbers tanked after Dusty Baker gave up on him in Chicago, itís tempting to think about how he might respond from playing most every day, rather than being jerked in and out of the lineup and shuffled from one club to another. On the other hand, heíll be 27 next year, teams have a right to be demanding of their first basemen, and confidence is a skill.

    Second Base
    Beat PECOTA: Brian Roberts, Orioles (+42.7)
    Beaten Down: Mark Bellhorn, Yankees (-35.2)


    A volatile year for second basemen; besides Roberts and Bellhorn, Mark Ellis (+25.2), Chase Utley (+24.0), and Jorge Cantu (+23.6) all did big things, while Bret Boone (-31.7), DíAngelo Jimenez (-29.9), Junior Spivey (-29.3) and Mark Loretta (-26.9 on a notably pessimistic PECOTA) all joined Bellhorn in the tank. Among the breakouts, Utley looks like the best bet going forward; heís younger than Roberts and Ellis, and doesnít have Cantuís plate discipline issues. You have to hate to see the injury to Roberts, particularly as this season was mostly a power breakout and the injury was to his left elbow, which is going to take a ton of torque for a guy who takes most of his plate appearances from that side of the plate.

    Bellhorn has fallen into something of a Saberhagen Oscillation, and it says something that the two teams that are probably best equipped to appreciate his skills have punted him. One thing we should look at in the future is whether extreme ďThree True OutcomesĒ players are more-slump prone. I will say this: guys who work extremely deep into the count donít leave themselves a whole lot of margin for error if thereís just the slightest tick in their timing. This year, Bellhorn is hitting just .098 with two strikes on him, with strikeouts in 55% of those plate appearances.

    Third Base
    Beat PECOTA: Morgan Ensberg, Astros (+36.3)
    Beaten Down: Scott Rolen, Cardinals (-57.1).
    Non-Injury Division: Mike Lowell, Marlins (-34.4).


    PECOTA predicted something of a rebound for Ensberg, but heís still managed to blow away his projection. The sudden disappearance and reappearance of his isolated power while his other statistics remained just about the same, looks like it might be an unreported injury. Actually, the other statistic that has fit the pattern are Ensbergís fielding numbers: his FRAA was +9 in 2003, -13 in 2004, and now it's back to +9 in 2005. Third base is a throwing position; itíd be interesting to raid the Minute Maid Park training room and take a look at some shoulder X-rays.

    Speaking of shoulder injuries, take a look at how much Scott Rolen struggled as he tried to play through his problems. Mike Lowell doesnít have any such excuses, and has played just about as poorly as you can without getting benched. Although I suggested back at the trade deadline that this might be the beginning of the end for Lowell, Iím not so sure upon closer examination. All the underlying metrics remain the same: his plate discipline, groundball/flyball numbers and speed metrics are about what theyíve always been. His defense continues to rate well, and heís hit plenty of doubles. Itís just that 20 home runs seem to have evaporated; I expect that heíll get about two-thirds of those back next season.

    Shortstop
    Beat PECOTA: Michael Young, Rangers (+50.6)
    Beaten Down: Cristian Guzman, Nationals (-27.2)


    PECOTA just completely whiffed on Young, giving him a 37% collapse rate, and remaining skeptical enough of his power that folks like Mark Grudzielanek showed up as comparables. Nor does Ameriquest Field provide much of an explanation; Young is one of the few Rangers who has hit just about as well on the road as he has at home. His plate approach wouldnít appear to have changed that much, and I have no real answer here, other than the handy "ballplayers are funny."

    That Guzman managed to win his division in spite of a projected batting line of .263/.301/.367 is remarkable; he comes in just ahead of the man who replaced him in Minnesota, Jason Bartlett (-26.8). Among Guzmanís top five PECOTA comparables, three were Larry Bowa, Ozzie Guillen, and Red Schoendienst, so thereís a good chance that heíll continue to annoy us for years to come, even if his batting skills have atrophied.

    Left Field
    Beat PECOTA: Jason Bay, Pirates (+41.0)
    Beaten Down: Barry Bonds, Giants (-61.0).
    Non-Injury Division: Eric Byrnes, Various (-31.1).


    My pet theory on Jason Bay, who is developing into one of those multitalented players that PECOTA should treat very favorably going forward, is that players from Canada develop slower than the norm. Larry Walker? His best seasons according to our WARP system came at ages 30 and 34. Matt Stairs? Not established in the big leagues until 29. Corey Koskie? Stuck in the minors until 26. Tip OíNeill? His batting average jumped by more than 100 points at age 29. Terry Puhl peaked early, I guess. There is some rationale behind this; hockey weather prevails for about three-quarters of the year in Canada, and so players from our friendly neighbor donít get as much experience under their belt as amateurs. Bay played his college ball at Gonzaga and something called North Idaho College (thank you, Pirates Media Guide), which isnít much better.

    Surfer boy Byrnes, on the other hand, who grew up in Redwood City and went to college at UCLA, became utterly lost once he found himself beached thousands of miles from the Pacific. Heís hit .280 in the California Republic this season, and .204 everywhere else.

    Center Field
    Beat PECOTA: Brady Clark, Brewers (+33.8)
    Beaten Down: Corey Patterson, Des Moines (-39.5)


    Iím not really buying the Brady Clark breakout, which is largely batting average and playing time driven, but to his credit heís developed into a useful complementary part now that the Brewers have discovered that he can play a credible center field, seeing a lot of pitches for a guy that doesnít hit for much power and taking more than his fair share of them for the team (16 HBP). Heís also 10-for-23 on stolen base attempts; look for a challenge trade that brings the ďbroodingĒ Aaron Rowand (-15.1) to Miller Park next season.

    Patterson started taking more pitches toward the end of last season, to the extent that I thought he was a real breakout candidate and told friends that I wouldnít trade him straight-up for Andruw Jones (+15.6), even before salary considerations. The Cubs are probably right that he doesnít have a future in Chicago, although that leaves open the question of just how responsible they are for his demise. Iím not talking about "teaching plate discipline," which is probably impossible once a player has hit age 25 or so. But to play Wednesday Morning Armchair Psychologist, it would seem that the Dusty Baker tough love approach is incongruous with a moody player like Patterson; Patterson certainly didnít respond well after his demotion to Iowa. Next year, weíll get Felix Pie up here, and the cycle shall repeat itself.

    Right Field
    Beat PECOTA: Emil Brown, Royals (+28.4); Geoff Jenkins, Brewers (+28.4).
    Beaten Down: Sammy Sosa, Orioles (-33.1).


    Thereís nothing all that interesting about Jenkinsí season. Like J.D. Closser, Jenkins had a relatively volatile projection, with breakout and collapse rates both around 20%, the latter because an injury-prone corner outfielder having a down season as Jenkins did in 2004 can sometimes be a bad sign (think Candy Maldonado). Heís managed to stay mostly healthy and perform toward the better end of what heís capable of; his .292/.371/.512 batting line is an almost perfect analog for PECOTAís .294/.372/.530 90th percentile projection. As for Emil Brown--we thought so much of him that we didnít even print his PECOTA card prior to the season. I have one stored on my Toshiba; his top comparables are: Chris Jones, John Wehner, Tom Paciorek, Thomas Howard, and Don Taussig. If you could see this coming, please drop me a line; Iíll be happy to set you up with my Party Poker username and password.

    Zen koan for the day: if a monk comes up to you and wagers you 100 lotus flowers that Sammy Sosa wonít make the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, do you accept it? Sosaís comparables were about evenly divided between players like Reggie Jackson and Dave Winfield that managed to provide some value in their late thirties, and others like Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy who fell apart completely. What you donít see is guys who had a rough year at age 36 and then rebounded. One change Iíd like to make to PECOTA this winter is to rig the system such that the most recent season is given relatively more weight in the case of very old and very young players, and relatively less weight in the cases of player in mid-career. Before you ask: yes, there is a statistical basis for this. If Pat Burrell or Adrian Beltre has an out-of-character season, I expect a lot of regression to the mean; if Sosa or Moises Alou (+30.6) does, thatís something different.


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