Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

[vaticanplum]

You're making this far too complicated than it really is.

Think of a ladder of all baseball crimes. The worse a crime is to baseball, the higher up the ladder it sits and the harsher the penalty for committing that crime. There are a wealth of crimes in baseball, from fixing games to using steroids to doctoring baseballs to running out of a basepath. Some crimes are major and sit high on the ladder while others are minor and sit low on the ladder.

All I'm saying is that steroids sit far lower on that ladder than many people believe. It's all about historical perspective and the proper context.

I think this is a matter of opinion. Morals are subjective and that ladder is not set in stone. People may believe that those rungs are in different places and there's no quantifer to prove any of them wrong.

Everything I stated in post 129 is how baseball will rightfully view steroids, Barry Bonds and everything related. They will put steroid use and Bonds' steroid use in perspective with the entire arsenal of baseball crimes that can be committed. At that point, he may or may not be penalized. I'll tell ya this much, he sure as heck won't be banned or anything remotely close.

Baseball knows where steroids sit on that ladder, and it's much closer to where I'm claiming they sit than where everyone else believes it sits.

Again, this is all opinion. I'm assuming that when you say "baseball knows..." you mean the powers that be, the ones running the game. Yes, there are many who agree with you. There are also quite a few who do not, and are fighting for very harsh punishments against steroids in baseball. The debate of how bad steroids are rages there as much as it does on these boards.

Disagree and think I'm wrong? Sure ok. Pepper Selig's office with letters and stop supporting the game - most notably financially - until they treat steroid users with the penalties you believe they should hand down. If enough of the anti-Bonds, ban-all-the-players-that-use-steroids crowd does that, then I'll be proven wrong because then the game will crumble due to loss of faith by the public.

Gambling nearly ruined the game in the first two decades of the 20th century, because ultimately gambling undermines and eats at the public's faith in the game to the point that the public stops supporting it. That's how the game crumbles. When people rail against steroid users, then still attend a dozen games per year, the game isn't crumbling.

I do happen to know people who have stopped supporting baseball since the steroid controversy heated up. I know people who left the sport during the strike, were brought back by 1998, and have since left again in part because of steroids. Some of this isn't due to steroids alone, probably; some of it is probably due to prices and contracts and Kenny Rogers and what-have-you. Fans are fickle and always will be, and most of them generally don't carry with them the "historical perspective" you're talking about on a daily basis when they go to the ticket office. I know one man who grew up a die-hard baseball fan and looked forward his whole life to sharing it with his kids when he had them. His kids are little now and he has not bothered to introduce them to baseball, because he's concerned about the role models they should have. I don't necessarily agree with the whole role model thing, but that's not the point...my point is that it is turning people away. And the bigger the stars, the harder they fall, the more this effect willl take place. Barry Bonds is a huge star and this will have ramifications and it will turn people away. Or will it? I can't say for sure, because sadly I do not have a time machine. A lot of what you say about how this will be viewed in the future and in the greater context of the sport is interesting and educated and I think you may well be right, but it's a weak argument because there's no way to back up an opinion using arguments of things that haven't happened yet.

[Cyclone792]

I think this is a matter of opinion. Morals are subjective and that ladder is not set in stone. People may believe that those rungs are in different places and there's no quantifer to prove any of them wrong.

Attendance records speak loudly.

I do happen to know people who have stopped supporting baseball since the steroid controversy heated up. I know people who left the sport during the strike, were brought back by 1998, and have since left again in part because of steroids. Some of this isn't due to steroids alone, probably; some of it is probably due to prices and contracts and Kenny Rogers and what-have-you. Fans are fickle and always will be, and most of them generally don't carry with them the "historical perspective" you're talking about on a daily basis when they go to the ticket office. I know one man who grew up a die-hard baseball fan and looked forward his whole life to sharing it with his kids when he had them. His kids are little now and he has not bothered to introduce them to baseball, because he's concerned about the role models they should have. I don't necessarily agree with the whole role model thing, but that's not the point...my point is that it is turning people away. And the bigger the stars, the harder they fall, the more this effect willl take place. Barry Bonds is a huge star and this will have ramifications and it will turn people away. Or will it? I can't say for sure, because sadly I do not have a time machine. A lot of what you say about how this will be viewed in the future and in the greater context of the sport is interesting and educated and I think you may well be right, but it's a weak argument because there's no way to back up an opinion using arguments of things that haven't happened yet.

If steroids are turning people away, then that must be why the average team brought in 350,000 more fans in 2005 than it did in 1990. The last expansion season was 1998, in which the game drew 70 million fans. In 2005, the game drew over 74 million. Ticket prices continually going up? Must be that supply and demand at work for increased interest in attending ballgames.

It's all well and good that there's a handful of people here and there that have given up on the game, but all the attendance records show is that baseball is booming. The 1994 strike irritated people, and it showed up in the attendance records immediately in 1995. Steroids are apparently irritating people, but it's not showing up in the attendance records. In fact, attendance records are setting record highs. McGwire was getting pounded by the press for steroids when he was still playing, and he's been out of the game for four years now.

By comparision, in 1908, the average team attendance per season was 445,000. By 1917, that figure had dropped to 326,000. It's amazing what happens when the public realizes that Prince Hal and his boys are running the show through their bookies.

[WVRedsFan]

I'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion. That's pointless in this context. Cheating is cheating, whether you take steroids or doctor the ball. In our society, we give lip service to being honest or "doing the right thing," but rarely follow either path.

I don't like Barry Bonds as a player. He's rude, arrogant, and paranoid. Not the kind of things I value in a person. His whole drive in breaking this homerun record has been racist from the beginning--wanting to break Babe Ruth's record but maybe fall short of Hank Aaron's record. I have been amazed at what he has done as a baseball player after 35 and I was always impressed, but not anymore. I was 35 once and in pretty good shape and couldn't understand why he was able to do these things. Now I know.

To support Barry Bonds is simply, at his point, typical of the American fan who unfortunately believes that winning is the only thing no matter how you do it and honest competition is for losers.

Should he be in the Hall? I'll leave that up to those that have a vote. Should he continue to play with this coming out (and I believe as one poster said all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted)? No. It should be over for Barry Bonds because he did something illegal to gain an advantage. Will it? I seriously doubt it. I know I'll be one hacked off fan if they allow Bonds to continue in baseball while banning Rose for betting. Neither is something to be proud of, but both are illegal and both should receive the same treatment.

And for those who consider drinking a strong cup of coffee to enhance performance the same as taking steriods, I am amazed. Surely, you can see the difference.

The quicker MLB cleans this up the better.

[SteelSD]

Attendance records speak loudly.

Spitball pitchers cheated.

Yet baseball was on our minds.

Free Agency ruined our innocence.

We continued to watch baseball.

Steve Howe is an addict. Innocence lost.

But I was still going to games.

Pete Rose gambled and stole my innocence.

The games went on and so did I.

Corked bats ruined my innocence.

I still watched baseball.

Collusion sapped me of my illusions of fair play.

Hello, baseball. I like you.

The player strike(s) ruined my innocence.

Yet, baseball was on my telly even before McGwire v Sosa brought it back.

Then andro and cork-gate ruined my innocence all over again.

But I still love the smell of a rosin bag.

The Yankees spent 200M on their team. It's all broken, says I!!

And still I do not shun.

Giambi doped and Palmeiro lied. I just can't take it!

Rarely ever have I enjoyed baseball as much.

Barry Bonds took steroids.

Well, that's IT! Might as well kill HIM...

---

At some point, outrage becomes nothing more than self-indulgent and that point falls somewhere after we can no longer consider ourselves "innocent". And that point is long past. Players cheat. Sometimes they cheat little. Sometimes they cheat big. Sometimes they do dumb things. Sometimes the owners are corrupt.

When we watched Mark McGwire chase Maris, we knew. We KNEW. We knew, at minimum, by then that baseball was imperfect because the human beings that took the field were imperfect. We knew. And yes, I find it exceptionally ironic that folks are now claiming they know people who were brought back by a couple of cheaters but then left again because of the cheating.

At what point did we, as fans, become so screwed up that we allow our own moral needs to supercede the reality of imperfection? When was it that we became so unreasonable as to not understand the difference between shining up a ball, corking a bat, swallowing amphetamines, shooting steroids, and betting on baseball games? Never. We know the difference. Absolutely we know the difference.

The fan who doesn't know the difference doesn't care one iota about Barry Bonds and steroids. Why? Because the fan that doesn't know the difference is gone LONG before Barry Bonds shot a needle into his leg or rubbed "clear" or "cream" on himself. If cheating is cheating is cheating and any and all cheating is cause to walk away, those walks should have already been taken.

Instead, we hear this:

"Y'know, these 'roided up freaks are ruining the game. They need to flat out ban those cheaters before people stop coming out to the park. Oh, honey...I'm going to the concession stand after the inning. There was a huge line last time because the game is a sellout so you better let me know now if you want another hot dog."

Personally, I don't care whether Bonds gets into the Hall of Fame or not. Doesn't matter to me. I don't wonder whether or not he took steroids. Heck, if this were an episode of Law and Order, they'd need to find another story to fill up the last 50 minutes of the hour. But when Barry Bonds walks to the plate I'm watching if it's on the tube. And I'm not wondering or even caring whether he's all 'roided up right now any more than I wondered or cared how many Home Runs he's hit off pitchers who were doping at the time.

Moral consistency is more than black-and-white. It's contextual. And in this case, I'm way past the illusion that anything about baseball has been fair and just for the better part of my life. Strike that. Rewind. I'm way past the illusion that baseball has been fair and just ever.

That doesn't mean baseball isn't played on a level field though. Pitchers shine baseball up and throw them. Hitters cork bats. Teams pay ungodly sums of money to their players while others who live off scraps get smarter and compete. Hitters take peformance enhancing substances. Pitchers take performance enhancing substances. Doesn't make it right. But it also doesn't mean that it's unbalancing anything because baseball is a dynamic organic system that adjusts to that which threatens its stability. Sometimes that adjustment is positive. Sometimes it's negative. Way it goes.

That is, of course, the reason gambling is rightly the death of a baseball career. It unbalances the playing field in a way that cannot be counteracted by a natural action/reaction within the game itself.

But in the end, baseball goes through phases while it lives and breathes. Sometimes it's sick. But it gets better naturally. The one constant is that it carries grumpy disillusioned fans with it every step of the way. And you can see them sitting next to you at your local MLB ballpark.

[Jpup]

Well, here is my initial reaction to the article. First of all, as many of you may know, I have somewhat supported Bonds' in the past. I have have felt since, at least, 2000 that Bonds' was a steroid user. I did not understand the extent of the use until much later and maybe it was today, I can't be sure really. I kind of feel like I lost something today. I always held out that hope that it was the media blowing this all out of proportion when it came to Bonds. I am sure that it's still possible, but I think the proof has been laid out for the case against Barry Lamar Bonds. Also remember that we don't put people on trial through the media in this country and we don't let ex-girlfriends sit on the jury(thank goodness).

With that being said, I take issue with these people that act like Bonds is the worse human being on the planet, but sit and cheered for Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa as they chased 61. It was painfully obvious that those 2 were on steriods, McGwire has been on the juice since his days in Oakland with his buddy Canseco. Like someone else said, now go get the ones of really started it all, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. I really do think that Barry and his actions toward the media earlier in his career sealed his fate. If he smiled and smacked his chest when he lied, the media would love him. If he "brought baseball back" then the media would love him. Believe it or not, I do think that his race comes into play with many people. Both Bonds and the media can be blamed for that. Blame Bonds for playing the race card and the media for using it.

Bonds will not walk away before passing "The Babe." That is who he has been after, all along.

I am not going to say that I don't hate what any of these guys did, but I can't say that we didn't all know it for several years. The only reason that this is such a big deal today is that all of those people that said that Bonds was on the "juice" can beat their chest and say they were right. "I told you so." Well, no joke!

[RedsBaron]

Why is "gambling" a worse "baseball sin" than the illegal use of steroids? I didn't say "fixing a game"; I said "gambling."
If a player bets on a major league game in which he does not participate, how has he affected the outcome of the game?
If a player bets on his own team to win, has he not actually given himself a greater incentive to help his team win, which is his job in the first place?
"Fixing a game" is the ultimate baseball sin IMO and by matters of degree a far worse transgression than simply gambling on the game.
I mean no defense of gambling on the game. Players who do so should be, and obviously have been, suspended and banned from the game. I'm simply asking why is "mere" gambling a far worse offense than using steroids and other chemicals?
For that matter, if Bonds and McGwire and Palmiero and Caminiti and Giambi were doing nothing worse than what Gaylord Perry did when he doctored a baseball, why have they evaded questions and lied and hid? There were never federal grand juries considering whether or not a pitcher put vaseline on a baseball.
I also respectfully find it somewhat presumptuous to assert that 80 or 100 years from now no one will care if Bonds, et al took steroids. None of us know what will concern people then. For all I know fans will thrill to the exploits of cyborgs and androids.
I would note though that people here seem to be concerned about what went on 80 or 100 years ago. It has been more than 80 years since Babe Ruth's greatest seasons, it has been more than 100 years since Ty Cobb's rookie season, and it has been more than a century since Cap Anson played his last major league game, but the fact they played in a whites only league is still brought up in discussions regarding their accomplishments.

[traderumor]

Personally, I don't care whether Bonds gets into the Hall of Fame or not. Doesn't matter to me. I don't wonder whether or not he took steroids. Heck, if this were an episode of Law and Order, they'd need to find another story to fill up the last 50 minutes of the hour. But when Barry Bonds walks to the plate I'm watching if it's on the tube. And I'm not wondering or even caring whether he's all 'roided up right now any more than I wondered or cared how many Home Runs he's hit off pitchers who were doping at the time.

Regardless of whether or not that is the prevailing honesty, the fact that 'roids are so obviously directly responsible for the McGwire/Sosa chase and Bonds 73 greatly reduces the significance of those accomplishments. Which is exactly why there was no astonishment at those feats, even though I witnessed them. There was no awe at the remarkableness of the human endeavors because one knew they were not truly human endeavors, anymore than a guy lifting up a truck by its bumper while high on PCP is a remarkable human endeavor. They were and are articifical endeavors. I don't like Splenda, and I don't admire athletes who are providing us with sham performances and then explaining it away with "well, you couldn't do this on 'roids, so I'm still special."

[OnBaseMachine]

This is fantastic news. I dislike Bonds with a strong passion. I hope he just gives it up and retires. We all know you did it Barry, give it up.

New accusations leveled
Book links Bonds to steroids use

By David Wharton and Tim Brown
Los Angeles Times

Barry Bonds told reporters Tuesday that "there's no need to" look at a book which claims the slugger used a vast array of drugs, including steroids and human growth hormone, for at least five seasons.

For at least five seasons during which he emerged as one of baseball's greatest home-run hitters, Barry Bonds was using steroids, human growth hormone and other performance-enhancing drugs, according to an upcoming book by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters.

Bonds began using Winstrol, a commonly known steroid, after the 1998 season and gradually advanced to a weekly regimen of more-sophisticated and less-detectable substances, Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams write in "Game of Shadows," an excerpt of which appears in this week's Sports Illustrated.

Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig had been apprised of the book but declined to comment Tuesday, a spokesman saying he had yet to read the excerpt.

While the San Francisco Giants played an exhibition game against the San Diego Padres in Peoria, Ariz., Bonds remained at the team's spring training site in nearby Scottsdale.

"I won't even look at it," Bonds told reporters. "There's no reason to."

The book's release, scheduled for this month, comes at a time when baseball is struggling to rebuild an image that has been tarnished by widespread reports of steroid use that led to recent Congressional hearings.

The situation could worsen if Bonds, 41, makes good on his plans to play this season. With 708 home runs, he is nearing Babe Ruth's total of 714 and has a shot at Hank Aaron's all-time record of 755.

"Barry is going to be under constant scrutiny," Atlanta Braves third baseman Chipper Jones said. "For the last 15 to 20 years, he's been the face of baseball."

Dick Pound, head of the World Anti-Doping Agency, cautioned Major League Baseball against ignoring the Bonds controversy.

"I think the integrity of the game and the responsibility to the fans is far more important than what he's done," Pound said.

It remained unclear what action - if any - baseball can take. The league is tied to a strict collective bargaining agreement with the players' union, and Bonds has never tested positive for steroids.

In "Game of Shadows," Fainaru-Wada and Williams draw upon what they say are thousands of pages of documents and interviews with more than 200 people to describe Bonds' alleged use of performance-enhancing drugs.

According to the authors, Bonds had avoided steroids for much of his career but reconsidered during the 1998 season when St. Louis Cardinal slugger Mark McGwire set a record with 70 home runs in a season.

Describing Bonds as "one of the most prideful stars in baseball," they write that he was "astounded and aggrieved by the outpouring of hero worship for McGwire, a hitter whom he regarded as obviously inferior to himself."

At that point, they write, Bonds met personal trainer Greg Anderson, who called himself "the Weight Guru" and was a longtime steroid user and dealer.

Anderson started Bonds on Winstrol after the 1998 season, providing the steroids and syringes and injecting Bonds in the buttocks, the excerpt says. But after an injury-plagued 1999 season in which Bonds played only 102 games, a change was made.

The authors claim that Anderson started Bonds on another steroid, Deca-Durabolin, and human growth hormone. They also write that the Giants had unofficial background checks done and learned that Bonds' gym, the World Gym in nearby Burlingame, was known as a place to buy steroids and that Anderson was rumored to be a dealer.

But baseball would not begin testing for performance-enhancing drugs until 2003, and Bonds' personal trainer was allowed into the clubhouse at the new Pac Bell Park.

Bonds' girlfriend and later mistress, Kimberly Bell, began to notice changes in the ballplayer's appearance and behavior, the authors write. His hair fell out and acne broke out across his back. He became more temperamental, if not abusive.

At the same time, however, his on-field performance soared. In 2000, he finished with a .306 batting average, 106 runs batted in and a then-career-high 49 homers. The following season, he broke McGwire's record with 73 homers.

By then, the authors write, Bonds had been introduced to Victor Conte, who ran a small nutritional supplement company called BALCO that dealt in exotic and largely undetectable performance-enhancing drugs on the side.

The authors write Bonds was taking as many as 20 pills at a time. They cite doping calendars kept by Conte and Anderson, suggesting that his regimen included insulin, fast-acting steroids known as "Mexican beans" and another steroid called trenbolone, created to improve the muscle quality of beef cattle.

"When his power started to decline he would tell Anderson to start him on another drug cycle, according to a source familiar with Bonds," the Sports Illustrated excerpt reads. "Anderson kept the calendar that tracked his cycles. If he told Bonds he didn't need a cycle, Bonds would just tell him ... I'll do it myself."

In 2002, Fainaru-Wada and Williams write, Bonds began injecting human growth hormone every other day, alternating that substance with newer, undetectable steroids known as "the clear" and "the cream." He also took Clomid, an infertility drug for women, because Conte thought it helped restore the body's natural ability to produce testosterone, a process that can wane with steroids use.

The excerpt also quotes a recording of Anderson talking to an acquaintance who was secretly wearing a wire: "The whole thing is, everything I've been doing, it's all undetectable, see, like Marion Jones and them - it's the same stuff they went to the Olympics with and they test them every week. So that's why I know it works, so that's why I know we're not in trouble."

Soon after, in September 2003, law enforcement agents raided BALCO's headquarters and Anderson's condominium, seizing records, cash and performance-enhancing drugs.

In the months that followed, Bonds was among a number of high-profile athletes - including sprinter Jones and several NFL players - called before a grand jury. According to the authors, Bonds testified that he did not know the substances Anderson gave him were steroids.

"All I want is the pain relief, you know?" Bonds is quoted as saying in the excerpt. "I never asked Greg. When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.' "

The athletes were granted immunity for their testimony, but the immunity did not extend to perjury.

Conte, Anderson and two other men connected with BALCO were indicted on federal charges.

Conte eventually pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to distribute steroids and a second count of laundering a portion of a check and was sentenced to eight months confinement. Anderson was sentenced to six months' confinement after pleading guilty to similar charges.

Now the question is: How might the federal prosecution affect baseball's actions?

Having been criticized for ignoring steroids use in the 1990s, Major League Baseball officials are expected study the book and gauge its sourcing before choosing a course. Several officials wondered why federal prosecutors had not charged Bonds with perjury.

Nevertheless, a baseball inquiry of some type is likely.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs....603080306/1027

[membengal]

The only opinion that is ultimately going to matter here is the judgment of the court of public opinion. And, really, that judgement will be reflected in the votes of the writers in 5-10 years about all of the players tainted by this era.

For my part, I would not let Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro or Bonds into the hall (yes, not even Bonds, even acknowledging his credentials pre-human pharmacy).

No one will ever be able to convince Cyclone that his opinon on this is wrong, or convince me that mine is, I suspect. More illuminating might be a poll on the Hall worthiness of Bonds or Sosa or McGwire or Palmeiro. That will ultimately be where the consequences of their actions are realized, or not.

Cheaters all four of them. Regardless of race or background.

[OnBaseMachine]

Sadly, I think Bonds will be dead 5 to 7 years from now. As much as I dislike the guy, I would still never wish death on him, but I just don't see him living a full life after injecting all those substances into his body. Look at all the wrestlers who have died early to steroids, same with Ken Caminiti - cardiac hypertrophy (an enlarged heart) was a contributing factor in his death.

[oneupper]

Attendance records speak loudly.

Cyc...you can do better than this.
The Coliseum was standing-room only when the Christians took on the Lions.

Many enjoyed the steriod freak show. I watched myself.
How does this change things? Does it make us ALL guilty? I sure don't feel that way.

[RedsBaron]

Cyc...you can do better than this.
The Coliseum was standing-room only when the Christians took on the Lions.

Many enjoyed the steriod freak show. I watched myself.
How does this change things? Does it make us ALL guilty? I sure don't feel that way.

I was naive back in 1998. I did enjoy the exploits of McGwire and Sosa. Now if I happen to turn onto a re-broadcast on ESPN Classic of a HR-fest during the 1998 season I change the channel.

[Roy Tucker]

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

For this season, it appears that Bonds intends to play it out. Whether or not he does so in the face of the media fire storm that surrounds this story has yet to be seen.

I don't think this story will go away any time soon. This book and its supporting facts are a big deal. What will be the telling factor is the treatment Bonds gets when he appears in games, both home and away, from the fans and the press. If the public doesn't really care and continues to turn out in droves, then I think the immediacy of this will go away and the media pressure will lessen. But if Bonds is mercilessly booed both home and away, it will be interesting to see what Bonds does. He has always been a jerk before, but I think for him to withstand and repel the pressure that will be brought upon him, his jerk factor will have to get ratcheted up big-time. Which is a frightful concept.

I can't see any legal action coming out of this, be it suspensions or asterisks in the record books. MLB pretty well has its hands tied in ambiguity and its previous tolerance. Any court action MLB might take would be mired down for years in hearings and appeals. And I don't think Bud and the owners have the stomach nor the will for the fight.

Me? I think its sad. Bonds was an all-time HoF player before steroids and HGH. I think steroids and HGH enabled him to turbo-charge his career post-35 yrs. and I think that's wrong. It would be difficult to convince me that he could have accomplished these things without chemical enhancements. I think history *will* remember this and I think it *will* put a big-time stain on his career.

[Chip R]

Like a certain cyclist? That's another discussion obviously, but is that what you were thinking?

Actually, no. I believe Armstrong is clean. What I was getting at is that if Bonds had a personality more along the lines of a Rose, a Sosa or even McGwire who was pretty surly for the better part of the 98 season until he lightened up then I don't believe Bonds would have the problems that he is having now. You take care of the media and they usually take care of you. When Pete went down, most people were saddened by what was going on and they had some sympathy for him even if they did believe he deserved what he got. Most of the stuff you read about Bonds is gleeful. Something along the lines of he's getting what is coming to him. That's not to say he might not be in some hot water now if he was a nicer person but I'm guessing that there wouldn't be as many investigations and media cries to "get Bonds" if he were nicer. And those reporters who wrote the book were SF reporters. Maybe Bonds blew them off one time or cussed them out or just generally treated them badly. Maybe if he had treated them better they wouldn't have investigated him like they did.

[paulrichjr]

How ironic that Bonds did this out of jealosy but if he had abstained he would have probably gone down as one of the top 10 players of all time anyway. As someone posted in another thread...Thanks Griffey. In 10 years Grif will still be loved by the fans (more so than even now). Bonds will probably be even more despised.