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Thread: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

  1. #106
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric
    Yeah, people sure let McGwire off easy. Don't just throw out the race card when you have no idea what you are talking about. MANY people dislike Bonds and want his records gone for valid reasons. It's pretty arrogant and judgemental of you to call people racist.
    Compared to Bonds McGwire definitely has gotten off easy.

    I don't think I called everyone who's mad at Bonds a racist, but some? Yeah, definitely.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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  3. #107
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Babe Ruth would have been a thoroughly average player if he were playing today. Pitchers didn't throw as hard, they didn't throw so many different pitches, and pitchers weren't well coached or conditioned in Ruth's time.
    I was using that research as evidence that we can use any number of statistics as guesswork regarding what might have happened with players in the past had they been playing today and we can never really know for sure what a player might have done elsewhere. I don't think there's any more proof that Babe Ruth would have been an average player than there is that he would have hit 1140 home runs. As a present-day hitter, he surely would be better coached or conditioned or even juiced as well. He might have remained a pitcher. Heck, he might have been a great football player or a crappy shortstop. There's no way we can know any of this and my point is that achievements can stand only in the time in which they happened.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  4. #108
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    RF, I'm more than willing to call out racism when it exists, but I honestly don't think it's the case here. It's possible in a very small minority, but I think it was almost entirely Barry's attitude vs. McGwire's. If Barry was more of a likeable public guy and the reception was similar, then I think it would be clear. But in Barry's case, it's difficult to say it's racially driven because he has such an ornery public image.

    And if McGwire still played, he would be cut to pieces by the fans and media.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  5. #109
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Compared to Bonds McGwire definitely has gotten off easy.

    I don't think I called everyone who's mad at Bonds a racist, but some? Yeah, definitely.
    One is still playing and chasing the best record in the sport. Please explain how you can compare such vastly different situations? Of course there is more outrage for the guy going after the record, not the record that is already done.
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  6. #110
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric
    Cyclone- You are really in total denial if you think Barry Bonds legacy is in tow. I think this arguement is almost personal for you. You took a stand for Bonds awhile ago and you aren't going to back down. No matter how absurd the stand is.
    Cedric and everyone else who probably thinks this is personal for me ...

    It's not, and not in the least bit. It has absolutely nothing to do with my previous stance on Bonds and nothing to do with what I think Bonds' legacy should be.

    It has everything to do with putting steroid use, including Bonds' steroid use, in its proper context within the overall history of the game.

    There are posters reading this, and have posted in this thread, that understand this issue the same as I do. They've even stated it in this thread and other threads on the board.

    I really do wish it would be possible to time travel, first back to the fall of 1920, and second to the year ... say ... 2100.

    I guarantee you that what baseball experienced by Hugh Fullerton blowing the fuse on the Black Sox scandal is much more damning to the game than this report on Barry Bonds and anything else steroids related. Maybe then all those people who think Pete Rose should be reinstated would realize how fatal gambling is within the world of sports.

    There are people reading this who believe Pete Rose should be reinstated while Barry Bonds should be banned. That's utterly ridiculous.

    I also guarantee you that when everyone alive today is dead, and when people 100 years from now will be arguing over the merits of this player and that player, nobody will give a rats tail about steroids, Barry Bonds' use of steroids, Mark McGwire's use of steroids, etc. etc. etc. Barry Bonds in 2100 will be seen in the same light as Gaylord Perry in 2100. Heck, perhaps Bonds will even be seen under a less damning light, because afterall, Perry did break baseball rules while Bonds did not.

    Unless there's evidence within the book that Bonds used steroids after baseball instituted its steroids policy and/or messed around in ways that allowed him to pass steroid tests that he'd otherwise fail, then Barry Bonds did not break any baseball rule. It is as simple as that. Those who say Barry Bonds broke a law in society, well that's great ... take a step back and let society's law enforcement officers step in and penalize Bonds. It is not baseball's job to enforce a societal law.

    People want Barry Bonds banned for breaking a baseball rule that did not exist. People want Barry Bonds' records to be wiped out for breaking a baseball rule that did not exist. Many of those same people also want Pete Rose reinstated.

    Well, sorry to say, none of those three will ever happen while we're all alive, and none of those three should ever happen. Baseball will not wipe those records out. Baseball will not ban Barry Bonds. And no, baseball will not reinstate Pete Rose. That's just the way it will be, and just the way it should be.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

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  7. #111
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    There is a rainbow coalition of players who have used steroids and other chemical enhancements, including Mark McGwire (white), Barry Bonds (black) and Rafael Palmiero (Hispanic), and I'm an equal opportunity fan--I wouldn't vote for any of them as Hall of Famers. If Jason Giambi and Ken Caminiti (both white) had career numbers that caused people to consider them for the HOF I wouldn't support them either.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  8. #112
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Cedric and everyone else who probably thinks this is personal for me ...

    It's not, and not in the least bit. It has absolutely nothing to do with my previous stance on Bonds and nothing to do with what I think Bonds' legacy should be.

    It has everything to do with putting steroid use, including Bonds' steroid use, in its proper context within the overall history of the game.

    There are posters reading this, and have posted in this thread, that understand this issue the same as I do. They've even stated it in this thread and other threads on the board.

    I really do wish it would be possible to time travel, first back to the fall of 1920, and second to the year ... say ... 2100.

    I guarantee you that what baseball experienced by Hugh Fullerton blowing the fuse on the Black Sox scandal is much more damning to the game than this report on Barry Bonds and anything else steroids related. Maybe then all those people who think Pete Rose should be reinstated would realize how fatal gambling is within the world of sports.

    There are people reading this who believe Pete Rose should be reinstated while Barry Bonds should be banned. That's utterly ridiculous.

    I also guarantee you that when everyone alive today is dead, and when people 100 years from now will be arguing over the merits of this player and that player, nobody will give a rats tail about steroids, Barry Bonds' use of steroids, Mark McGwire's use of steroids, etc. etc. etc. Barry Bonds in 2100 will be seen in the same light as Gaylord Perry in 2100. Heck, perhaps Bonds will even be seen under a less damning light, because afterall, Perry did break baseball rules while Bonds did not.

    Unless there's evidence within the book that Bonds used steroids after baseball instituted its steroids policy and/or messed around in ways that allowed him to pass steroid tests that he'd otherwise fail, then Barry Bonds did not break any baseball rule. It is as simple as that. Those who say Barry Bonds broke a law in society, well that's great ... take a step back and let society's law enforcement officers step in and penalize Bonds. It is not baseball's job to enforce a societal law.

    People want Barry Bonds banned for breaking a baseball rule that did not exist. People want Barry Bonds' records to be wiped out for breaking a baseball rule that did not exist. Many of those same people also want Pete Rose reinstated.

    Well, sorry to say, none of those three will ever happen while we're all alive, and none of those three should ever happen. Baseball will not wipe those records out. Baseball will not ban Barry Bonds. And no, baseball will not reinstate Pete Rose. That's just the way it will be, and just the way it should be.

    Are you really saying that you don't have enough common sense to gauge the levels of cheating? You have shown yourself from your time here to be a very smart person on this website, I don't believe you really think all indiscretions are the same. Basically you make that same point over and over again and it doesn't fly.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  9. #113
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    RF, I'm more than willing to call out racism when it exists, but I honestly don't think it's the case here. It's possible in a very small minority, but I think it was almost entirely Barry's attitude vs. McGwire's. If Barry was more of a likeable public guy and the reception was similar, then I think it would be clear. But in Barry's case, it's difficult to say it's racially driven because he has such an ornery public image.
    Would he have that image if he was white? It's a matter of debate, but I'm guessing no, at least not to the degree that it is now.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  10. #114
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric
    Are you really saying that you don't have enough common sense to gauge the levels of cheating? You have shown yourself from your time here to be a very smart person on this website, I don't believe you really think all indiscretions are the same. Basically you make that same point over and over again and it doesn't fly.
    Why are you taking disagreement so personally? Calm down.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  11. #115
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    There is a rainbow coalition of players who have used steroids and other chemical enhancements, including Mark McGwire (white), Barry Bonds (black) and Rafael Palmiero (Hispanic), and I'm an equal opportunity fan--I wouldn't vote for any of them as Hall of Famers. If Jason Giambi and Ken Caminiti (both white) had career numbers that caused people to consider them for the HOF I wouldn't support them either.
    But ...

    1) Do you support Cap Anson for the HOF?
    2) Do you support Kenesaw Mountain Landis for the HOF?
    3) Do you support Charles Comiskey for the HOF?
    4) Do you support Ty Cobb for the HOF?
    5) Do you support Tris Speaker for the HOF?
    6) Do you support Joe Jackson for the HOF?
    7) Do you support Pete Rose for the HOF?
    8) Do you support Gaylord Perry for the HOF?
    9) Do you support Whitey Ford for the HOF?

    This is all about historical perspective for me, RB.

    The first two are largely responsible for shutting blacks out of the game. Heck, we could maybe even throw Ban Johnson and all those other racist executives in the pile with Anson and Landis. I don't know, people can call me crazy, but I'd say shutting out entire races of people in your sport for over a half century is a far worse crime than using steroids.

    Charles Comiskey covered up a World Series fix. There's strong evidence that Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were involved in fixing games. You know what Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are banned for. All are worse crimes than using steroids.

    I really am curious as to your stance on all nine of the above guys. Because if you're shutting the door to steroid users, then I have to imagine you should be up in arms about wanting to shut the door to Jackson/Rose and also shut out the rest.

    And for the record, RB, I'm not going to ask you those questions without also being willing to give you my answers. In order, my answers are no, no, no, yes, yes, currently undecided (Carney's book may help me decide on that), no, yes and yes.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  12. #116
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Why are you taking disagreement so personally? Calm down.
    How am I taking it personally? I guess you can read intent of everything and everybody now?

    Cyclone is a great poster and one I respect alot. Don't talk down to me or tell me what to do.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  13. #117
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric
    Are you really saying that you don't have enough common sense to gauge the levels of cheating? You have shown yourself from your time here to be a very smart person on this website, I don't believe you really think all indiscretions are the same. Basically you make that same point over and over again and it doesn't fly.
    The same questions apply, Cedric ...

    1) Do you support Cap Anson for the HOF?
    2) Do you support Kenesaw Mountain Landis for the HOF?
    3) Do you support Charles Comiskey for the HOF?
    4) Do you support Ty Cobb for the HOF?
    5) Do you support Tris Speaker for the HOF?
    6) Do you support Joe Jackson for the HOF?
    7) Do you support Pete Rose for the HOF?
    8) Do you support Gaylord Perry for the HOF?
    9) Do you support Whitey Ford for the HOF?

    It's all about historical perspective and where steroids really fit within that perspective. From much of the response here, it seems that people think steroids are far worse than any of the crimes the nine men above committed.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  14. #118
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    I can understand that question. I would have to look further into the details of each case. I think each situation should be judged completely seperate from each other.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  15. #119
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    I do not advocate wiping statistics off the books, but we also do not have to simply look at a set of numbers and salute either.
    Ross Barnes once hit .429 in a National League season and hit .359 for his major league career. That doesn't mean that I will or should conclude that he was a better hitter than Ted Williams. I do not regard a .429 average in 1876, at the very dawn of the sport as a professional activity, baseball to be as impressive an achievement as a .406 average attained once the game had matured.
    Old Hoss Radbourne once won 59 games in a single season, but I don't regard him to be a greater pitcher than Bob Gibson, who never won even half that many in a single season.
    Yes, Chuck Klein put together some impressive batting numbers, but that doesn't mean that I must ignore the conditions he played in or how he benefitted from having a bandbox as a home park.
    Barry Bonds's complied batting numbers from 2001 through 2004 that, on the surface, are the greatest performance by a major league hitter, ever. There is overwhelming evidence that he did so in part because he was able to buy chemical enhancements to allow him to put together a string of seasons after age 36 that he incapable of achieving on his own physical ability alone. Excuse me if I don't salute.
    If in some future season bionics allow a hitter to hit 100 HRs in a season or to pitch a 500 mph fastball, that doesn't mean that I'm going to say, well Bud Selig never got around to banning bionics so the bionic man is now the greatest player of all time, or at least until the Terminator arrives from the future.
    I find honest human athletic achievement to be of interest. I have little interest in better baseball through chemistry.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #120
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    I was thinking the same thing RedBaron. Just because some eye doctor in the future could come up with super human vision contacts, I don't think you can expect fans to just except 100 homers a year and not complain about the numbers in the past.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.


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