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Thread: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

  1. #181
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Compare the parks he hit in with the parks of the 1930s or 1990s
    Much smaller than the ones in the 30's,
    As far as I know, Maris broke no laws by playing baseball after expansion, or by batting behind Mantle-actually, didn't he hit in front of Mickey part of 1961?
    That's right,strike what I said and reverse it.. that was my intention, having Mantle behind him was an advantage, as far as laws none broken.

    I was just sayng that the performance by a guy who nver hit more than 39 before or after peaked my interest of why it happened, as does Bond's situation. I believe that he juiced, but I'm certainly also open to the other aspects causing a change as well.

    Maris also feasted at the following hitters parks in 61.

    Tiger Stadium .297/.381/.784 5 HR's 37 ab's
    Fenway .257/.395/.600 5 HR's
    LA .333/.537/.630 1 HR

    But at CHI he killed and that was a slight pitchers park

    .359/.390/.846 5 HR's 39 ab's, but the WS staff was way worse at home than on the road, mostly in the slg% (plus .040)

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  3. #182
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    These are still all individuals, Cyclone, spread out over 50-60 years--hardly what could be considered "typical" or "wodespread." I'm not seeing any evidence that would lead me to view the statistics put up between 1910-1970 with the same suspicion I view the statistics from the past 20 years. So, I'm still not convinced.

    And again, to reiterate, my position isn't that steroids in and of themselves are necessarily worse than other forms of cheating--but I believe their use had become so prevalent and so commonplace in the game that it was causing the statistics for the game as a whole to be skewed. There isn't a HR title iachieved in the last ten years that hasn't been viewed with some level of skepticism by the public. I don't see that same level of scrutiny beling applied to the decades the players you listed above played in.
    There's evidence that steroid and greenie use started over 40 years ago. Not surprisingly, that generation of players tripled the 500 home run club.

    Coincidental? I think not.

    Unless you have some other explanation for why the 500 home run club tripled in size during one of the greatest pitching eras of our time. It is hypocritical to believe that the last 10 years are stained while also not calling into question the records that were set 40 years ago when the same drug use was running wild throughout the game.

    But people will blindly defend Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and their contemporaries no matter what.
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  4. #183
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    But people will blindly defend Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and their contemporaries no matter what.
    Yep. Probably b/c greenies vs. steroids (and other drugs that are given to animals) are not comparable to a lot of those people. You? You think greenies are equivalent to steroids and other animal drugs. Such is your right... as it is the rights of those who think different than yoruself.

    So the 60+ HRs/Yr. club gets entered multiple times in 5 years. Only twice before in MLB history. Guess that greenie thing is only good for the long-term (career) thing.

    Got a problem with Hank or Willie? Fine. Don't have a problem with them? Fine. Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire... they are a different group. They did different drugs. Public perceptions change. I choose not to compare anyone in today's game with those who have been retired for a long time. I will not defend a drug user and cheater b/c others before him may have done it. Want to defend Barry? Fine. But do not drag the names of others through Barry's mud while doing it. That is not an argument... that is an excuse.
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  5. #184
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    ESPN is reporting that Bonds has left the Giants spring training camp to attend to personal matters.
    This is the Cal Ripkin Jr. of typos.

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  6. #185
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    Yep. Probably b/c greenies vs. steroids (and other drugs that are given to animals) are not comparable to a lot of those people. You? You think greenies are equivalent to steroids and other animal drugs. Such is your right... as it is the rights of those who think different than yoruself.

    So the 60+ HRs/Yr. club gets entered multiple times in 5 years. Only twice before in MLB history. Guess that greenie thing is only good for the long-term (career) thing.

    Got a problem with Hank or Willie? Fine. Don't have a problem with them? Fine. Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire... they are a different group. They did different drugs. Public perceptions change. I choose not to compare anyone in today's game with those who have been retired for a long time. I will not defend a drug user and cheater b/c others before him may have done it. Want to defend Barry? Fine. But do not drag the names of others through Barry's mud while doing it. That is not an argument... that is an excuse.
    It's just the exploitation of Barry's good name, RFA
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  7. #186
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    Yep. Probably b/c greenies vs. steroids (and other drugs that are given to animals) are not comparable to a lot of those people. You? You think greenies are equivalent to steroids and other animal drugs. Such is your right... as it is the rights of those who think different than yoruself.

    So the 60+ HRs/Yr. club gets entered multiple times in 5 years. Only twice before in MLB history. Guess that greenie thing is only good for the long-term (career) thing.

    Got a problem with Hank or Willie? Fine. Don't have a problem with them? Fine. Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire... they are a different group. They did different drugs. Public perceptions change. I choose not to compare anyone in today's game with those who have been retired for a long time. I will not defend a drug user and cheater b/c others before him may have done it. Want to defend Barry? Fine. But do not drag the names of others through Barry's mud while doing it. That is not an argument... that is an excuse.
    Greenies and steroids = legal in baseball when they were used
    Greenies and steroids = illegal in society when they were used

    Where's the difference? Is it because one is more of a PED than the other? Greenies are PEDs, same as steroids. You're picking and choosing which drug is "bad" and which drug isn't, when they are both clearly performance enhancers. I'm sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.
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  8. #187
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Unless you have some other explanation for why the 500 home run club tripled in size during one of the greatest pitching eras of our time. It is hypocritical to believe that the last 10 years are stained while also not calling into question the records that were set 40 years ago when the same drug use was running wild throughout the game.

    But people will blindly defend Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and their contemporaries no matter what.
    Yep, that's me, blindly defending Mays and Aaron.

    Cyclone, go back and read my post on the previous page. I'm defending no one and no behavior. That's your own concoction. But your position on this topic seems, to me at least, a bit unreasonable. You present a list of players who doctored balls, corked bats, threw spitters and did other unsavory things. You post an article describing the use of amphetamines in MLB, and present speculative evidence that steroid use was rampant in the 60s and 70s because more home runs were hit then.

    Since when does past behavior and prior consequences dictate what can and cannot be said/done/believed about a particular individual? You act as if no one here has a right to be angry at people like McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro and (likely) many more for calling into question the integrity of the statistics they have put up, simply because we do not spew the same vitriol at Whitey Ford. I make no apoligies for my feelings on this issue, nor should anyone else. Whether everyone you have listed was juicing, whether every player in the history of the sport has been a rampant cheater whose records are fraudulent--I'm talking about the game today, and what should be done about it. So what if Mays juiced up, Jackson smeared stuff on his rear, and Aaron gave himself shots of fish tranquilizer? I wasn't alive during the era of the people you have mentioned and described, but I would like to think that an exposure of mass cheating in the majors during that time would have raised my ire as much as reports of the same do today. So knock off the hypocrite talk.

    Like I wrote in my previous post, I have no interest in watching a game if the contest becomes who is capable of concocting the most inventive steroid formula. I want to see every effort made to ensure a clean game, from all participants. I'm not willing to grant leniancy or a free pass simply because players have knowingly gotten away with it in the past. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro et al. used steroids, those steroids helped them achieve record-breaking numbers and statistics, and I have no respect for them because of that. Enough said.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  9. #188
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Yep, that's me, blindly defending Mays and Aaron.

    Cyclone, go back and read my post on the previous page. I'm defending no one and no behavior. That's your own concoction. But your position on this topic seems, to me at least, a bit unreasonable. You present a list of players who doctored balls, corked bats, threw spitters and did other unsavory things. You post an article describing the use of amphetamines in MLB, and present speculative evidence that steroid use was rampant in the 60s and 70s because more home runs were hit then.

    Since when does past behavior and prior consequences dictate what can and cannot be said/done/believed about a particular individual? You act as if no one here has a right to be angry at people like McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro and (likely) many more for calling into question the integrity of the statistics they have put up, simply because we do not spew the same vitriol at Whitey Ford. I make no apoligies for my feelings on this issue, nor should anyone else. Whether everyone you have listed was juicing, whether every player in the history of the sport has been a rampant cheater whose records are fraudulent--I'm talking about the game today, and what should be done about it. So what if Mays juiced up, Jackson smeared stuff on his rear, and Aaron gave himself shots of fish tranquilizer? I wasn't alive during the era of the people you have mentioned and described, but I would like to think that an exposure of mass cheating in the majors during that time would have raised my ire as much as reports of the same do today. So knock off the hypocrite talk.

    Like I wrote in my previous post, I have no interest in watching a game if the contest becomes who is capable of concocting the most inventive steroid formula. I want to see every effort made to ensure a clean game, from all participants. I'm not willing to grant leniancy or a free pass simply because players have knowingly gotten away with it in the past. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro et al. used steroids, those steroids helped them achieve record-breaking numbers and statistics, and I have no respect for them because of that. Enough said.
    The game today has a steroid problem, and baseball is rightfully working on it. And yep, it needs to be resolved. All this I agree with you on.

    I just find it absolutely stunning that seemingly nobody cares at all about the drug use that occurred in previous generations. Nobody cares about the past? Right, that must be why nobody wants any steroid user of today to break a record from the past.

    Greenies are now banned by MLB. Why are people not at all calling into question the statistical records of the players who used them? If the drugs aren't "bad" then why did MLB ban them?

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2357037

    There's an article about a list of approved substances coming out. Greenies aren't on it; they're banned.

    Willie Mays used greenies, and those drugs likely helped him achieve his record breaking numbers and statistics. The players of today used steroids and those steroids helped them achieve record breaking numbers and statistics. I sense a connection. You've been stating that the steroids are bad, which I agree with, but that the greenies, possible steroid use in the 1960s and earlier records apparently do not matter, which I fully disagree with.

    If your answer is you don't care because you weren't alive, that's fine. Roll with it then, but if you don't care how the game duped earlier fans in previous generations then that's sort of laughing in those fans' faces. I'm certainly not going to do that, and neither will baseball ... otherwise guys such as Eddie Cicotte, Lefty Williams, et al would have been reinstated upon their death. Likewise, understand that 100 years from now fans taking your same view will not care about Barry Bonds using steroids. They'll want to put him in the Hall if he's not already there, and they won't care one iota how you believe steroids tarnished the game.

    If you don't give a darn how a few men "played with the faith of fifty million people," as F. Scott Fitzgerald phrased it, then you'll never understand baseball's hierarchy of crimes.
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  10. #189
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    I just find it absolutely stunning that seemingly nobody cares at all about the drug use that occurred in previous generations. Nobody cares about the past? Right, that must be why nobody wants any steroid user of today to break a record from the past.
    It's not that nobody cares, but what can we do about it? There's no way to run drug testing on a corpse. If somehow it was proven -- heck, even if not -- then we can talk about the Hall of Fame and the record books, but that's a separate debate. Right now we are talking about a man still playing baseball, in a climate in which more is known by the general public about steroids and thus people are rightfully more wary of them than they were in decades past. I have no problem with standards being raised as decades roll by and we learn more about previously mysterious, under-the-table things. That's a sign of evolution and progress. It's certainly better to me than the alternative, ie. holding everybody to the same standard, even if it has been proven to be a bad one, just to be used as a basis for comparison with people who are dead. That is no way to live.

    If you don't give a darn how a few men "played with the faith of fifty million people," as F. Scott Fitzgerald phrased it, then you'll never understand baseball's hierarchy of crimes.
    Again, a totally separate conversation. Has it been revealed that Barry Bonds gambled on baseball? String him up. Right now we're talking about a transgression that there is strong evidence he committed, and that's the use of steroids.
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  11. #190
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Is this "cheating" What would Mantle say?

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=4832

    The Sox have few injury problems coming into camp, a refreshing change from the past. Curt Schilling looks healthy and has some velocity back. David Wells is doing well with his knee and his weight seems relatively under control. The team is a little worried about Keith Foulke, though even this is minor. Foulke had surgery on both knees in the past year and is now taking Synvisc injections in at least one of them. These are the same type of lubricating injections that have helped Randy Johnson over the last couple years (and I suspect a few others are using it, too). The Sox are also cautious about Dustin Pedroia. The prospect injured his left (non-throwing) shoulder on a swing, immediately recalling the injury to J.J. Hardy just a few years ago, one of the more painful injuries I’ve seen. Pedroia’s doesn’t appear nearly as serious and he's expected to miss just a couple weeks. He’ll have an extremely conservative timetable, making it less likely he’ll break camp to go quite as far north. Pawtucket’s nice this time of year, right?

  12. #191
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Likewise, understand that 100 years from now fans taking your same view will not care about Barry Bonds using steroids. They'll want to put him in the Hall if he's not already there, and they won't care one iota how you believe steroids tarnished the game.
    It's going on 85 years, and people still remember why Shoeless Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame. Even if there's no asterisk, even if Bonds makes it into the hall, people will argue over whether he belongs.

  13. #192
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    If your answer is you don't care because you weren't alive, that's fine. Roll with it then, but if you don't care how the game duped earlier fans in previous generations then that's sort of laughing in those fans' faces. I'm certainly not going to do that, and neither will baseball ... otherwise guys such as Eddie Cicotte, Lefty Williams, et al would have been reinstated upon their death. Likewise, understand that 100 years from now fans taking your same view will not care about Barry Bonds using steroids. They'll want to put him in the Hall if he's not already there, and they won't care one iota how you believe steroids tarnished the game.

    If you don't give a darn how a few men "played with the faith of fifty million people," as F. Scott Fitzgerald phrased it, then you'll never understand baseball's hierarchy of crimes.
    Two quick things: One, I've never said I don't care about what happened in the past, or how past cheaters were treated, but like VP says--what are we to do about it? I'm not sure what you're goal is here...to acknowledge that there have always been cheaters in baseball? I've done that. To acknowledge that cheating may have been as pervasive then as it appears to be now? I've allowed for that possibility. That Bonds should not/cannot be penalized by MLB for taking something not specifically banned? I've agreed with that too. But I am still angry about the situation, and like I said, for that i make no apologies.

    I'm simply not sure what your argument is, or what you're looking for in the way of a concession. Should I be incensed that Gaylord Perry threw a spitball? That Willie Mays took greenies? That Babe Ruth drank? That's as senseless as saying that someone who disagrees with President Bush has no right to be angry if they do not also acknowledge--and show sufficient anger at--the policies of the Woodrow Wilson administration. I'm sure baseball has had its share of cheats, I'm sure some records were broken because the player used supplemants. But what is to be done now? Bonds is an active player, and the issue of dealing with steroids is a very real--and current--problem. I, personally, view Bonds as a cheat and a liar, and no amount of harping about the sins of Whitey Ford is going to change that.

    Second, with regards to Bond's stature 100 years from now, I would not underestimate the power of the media in forming and shaping society's views and perceptions. If Willie Mays had played under the media micriscope that bonds has played under, and if his sins were as thoroughly broadcasted and discussed as Bonds has been, I find it entirely possible that he would be viewed in a substantially different light than we do today. Like I mention in the Redslive forum, Bonds' election to the HoF is far from a sure thing at this point--we have yet to know how this will play out.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  14. #193
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Heath
    I wonder if this cause the man to step down.....

    It'll probably cause him to give a big (fill in the blank) to the league and drive him to beat Hank Aaron's record.


    What a shame.

  15. #194
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Without getting too deep into the chemistry of it, I just don't put greenies on the same shelf with steroids. I think amphetamines of that ilk should be banned -- but not because they're a performance enhancer in the sense that steroids are. It's because high-power amphetamines are easily abused and as such are a health risk.

    When you get right down to it, the effects of a greenie can be duplicated with perfectly legal substances. I could drink a 12-pack of Coke or chug a couple of Red Bulls and be as alert as all get-out. But no matter how awake and alert and energized I am, my baseline level of performance hasn't changed. The edge I get is about being at my best that day; it does not change what my best is. Is it really that different from a guy who gobbles Advils so he can play without pain?

    But steroids are all about changing the baseline, upgrading your best to better.

    To repeat, I'm perfectly OK with banning substances that are true performance enhancers, or health hazards, or subject to abuse. But that doesn't put them all on the same plane in my mind. We live in a pharmaceutical age, and the lines aren't always clear.
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  16. #195
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed
    When you get right down to it, the effects of a "greenie" can be duplicated with perfectly legal substances. I could drink a 12-pack of Coke or chug a couple of Red Bulls and be as alert as all get-out. But no matter how awake and alert and "energized" I am, my baseline level of performance hasn't changed. The "edge" I get is about being at my best that day; it does not change what my best is. Is it really that different from a guy who gobbles Advils so he can play without pain?
    It's going to be interesting what players replace greenies with. I'm guessing the sales of Red Bull and other such drinks are going to skyrocket amongst MLB teams.

    I'm no expert on the effect of amphetimines but the difference between those and coffee or Coke or Red Bull is that the latter all are highly caffinated. One of the effects of caffiene is that you have to pee a lot. You're standing out in the field and all of a sudden you gotta go. If you're on the bench and not due up, it's no big deal but if you're on the basepaths or in the field it could be rather uncomfortable after a while. I don't know, maybe it'll make them hustle a little more.
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