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Thread: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

  1. #166
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792

    You've stated your concern is for watching honest players play the game on their own merit. Unfortunately, I'm sorry to say that cheating has been rampant in the game ever since the beginning of its existence. Believing its been clean up until the 1990s is just refusing to believe reality. If you really would stop watching due to rampant cheating, then you should have never started watching in the first place.

    Your pain lies in the fact that you believe you were duped. Well, you've always been duped, whether it's been steroids or some other fashion of cheating. I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp.
    You seem to wink at this on the premise that "everyone's doing it and has been doing it." I still got a spanking from my mommy when I used this logic to explain away what I had done wrong.

    And VP did not say his "concern is for watching honest players," but desired an honest contest, which generally speaking baseball is. A player can have horrible personal character and lie 400 times a day and not have that affect the outcome of a baseball game. A guy bragging about throwing a spitter or a hitter divulging he used cork during a season doesn't change those as being the exception rather than the rule. Nor do they excuse the current brand of cheating and allow us to tell people to sit down and shut up because they still love the game despite occasional episodes attacking the game's integrity.
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  3. #167
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Your pain lies in the fact that you believe you were duped. Well, you've always been duped, whether it's been steroids or some other fashion of cheating. I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp.
    This would be more acceptable if steroid use wasn't so prevalent in the game. Maybe I'm wrong here--maybe steroid use is/was limited to only a few megastars and a few simply trying to catch on with a ML club. Maybe half the pitchers in the 1950s were tossing spitballs and using sandpaper. Maybe a majority of the batters in the 60s were juicing up and corking their bat.

    But I don't think so.

    This steroid issue, as it were, isn't a case of a couple of guys looking to beat the system. I think steroid use had become practically a way of life for many ML players, I think it was rampant throughout the league. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so--and that's the biggest difference between the cheaters of today, and the cheaters of yesteryear. A majority of the league wasn't throwing spitballs, and I don't think you could say the same about today's players. There has not yet been a scandal that I am aware of that throws an entire generation's worth of records and statistics into question as the steroid scandal has done. So, perhaps what my ultimate argument is is that the actual issue of using steroids isn't such an unpardonable sin, but its prevalency is.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  4. #168
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    . Steroid use was legal five years ago within the game, and it was known about (otherwise it wouldn't be legal now)....
    This MY FRIEND...Is NOT true.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  5. #169
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    This would be more acceptable if steroid use wasn't so prevalent in the game. Maybe I'm wrong here--maybe steroid use is/was limited to only a few megastars and a few simply trying to catch on with a ML club. Maybe half the pitchers in the 1950s were tossing spitballs and using sandpaper. Maybe a majority of the batters in the 60s were juicing up and corking their bat.

    But I don't think so.

    This steroid issue, as it were, isn't a case of a couple of guys looking to beat the system. I think steroid use had become practically a way of life for many ML players, I think it was rampant throughout the league. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so--and that's the biggest difference between the cheaters of today, and the cheaters of yesteryear. A majority of the league wasn't throwing spitballs, and I don't think you could say the same about today's players. There has not yet been a scandal that I am aware of that throws an entire generation's worth of records and statistics into question as the steroid scandal has done. So, perhaps what my ultimate argument is is that the actual issue of using steroids isn't such an unpardonable sin, but its prevalency is.
    Cheating has been a way of life in the game for as long as it's existed. No, that does not make it right in any form, but it's absolutely stunning how people are only now coming out of the woodwork to yell about one kind of specific cheating during one specific time period, yet they still fail to recognize that it's been prevalent throughout the game's history.

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...PGSTCJ0SK1.DTL

    Tom House was a modestly built left-handed relief pitcher with a below-average fastball. He also used steroids.

    In a vivid illustration of the long history of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball -- and how they tempted more than hulking power hitters --

    House acknowledged trying steroids for "a couple of seasons" during his playing days. He was drafted by Atlanta in 1967 and spent eight years (1971- 78) in the majors.

    House, later an accomplished pitching coach with Texas and now co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, said performance- enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and '70s. He and his teammates laughed and rationalized losses by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."

    House described the dynamic as similar to the majors in recent years: Players knew their competition had chemical help and felt compelled to keep pace. He said he and several teammates used amphetamines (known as "greenies"), human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find.

    "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...

    "I'd like to say we were smart, but we didn't know what was going on. We were at the tail end of a generation that wasn't afraid to ingest anything. As research showed up, guys stopped."

    House was listed at 5-foot-11 and 190 pounds, and he ballooned to 215 or 220 while on steroids. He blamed the increased weight for putting additional wear and tear on his knees; he had five surgeries on his right knee and two on his left.

    House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff were "fiddling" with steroids or growth hormone. He said the drugs and devoted conditioning improved his recovery, but his velocity didn't budge.

    "I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball and it still didn't go faster than 82 miles per hour," House said. "I was a failed experiment."

    House, now 58, might be best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run on April 8, 1974, in the Braves' bullpen at old Fulton County Stadium. He later pitched for Boston and Seattle, finishing his career at 29-23 with a 3. 79 ERA.

    He stopped using steroids, he said, because he went to school every offseason and learned about their potentially damaging long-term effects. House became nervous about shortening his life, not his career.

    Now he passes along these lessons to the young pitchers he tutors.

    "As an instructor, I'm about as anti-steroid as you can be, not through research but through first-hand knowledge," House said. "I try to aim people toward research and make it clear it's an unacceptable choice. It's OK to ask questions, but it's not OK to experiment."

    He worries about high school kids with little or no understanding of the risks involved. His concern is especially acute because he lives and works near San Diego, only a short drive from the accessible pharmacies of Tijuana.

    "The risk-reward isn't worth it," House said. "You may get lucky in the short term, but the medium- and long-term effects are if not life threatening, then close to life threatening."
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

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  6. #170
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper
    This MY FRIEND...Is NOT true.
    Baseball had no rules banning steroids five years ago.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  7. #171
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Pete Rose was one man. Baseball didn't suffer greatly for Pete Rose's transgressions. Pete Rose did.

    Steroids have made me question now the integrity of just about every baseball game I've seen since I've been on this earth in my 28 years. How many Giants wins by a Barry Bonds homerun wouldn't have been won without steroids? How many Cardinal wins by a Mark McGwire homerun wouldn't have been won without steroids? How many Cubs wins by a Sammy Sosa homerun wouldn't have been won without steroids? What makes me question the 1996 seasons of Brady Anderson and Barry Larkin, and so many other players? I don't know if the sport that I've loved all these years has been a great display of human athletic achievement of a farce, and for that I blame steroids. To me personally, gambling didn't hurt my perspective of the sport, but steroids did, so in the court of my personal opinion, steroids are far worse than gambling.

    One more question. Will anyone ever break Roger Maris' single season homerun record of 61?
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  8. #172
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    One more question. Will anyone ever break Roger Maris' single season homerun record of 61?
    Roger Maris made me question the effect of expansion, extreme hitters parks and batting behind Mickey Mantle type of players.

  9. #173
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Cheating has been a way of life in the game for as long as it's existed. No, that does not make it right in any form, but it's absolutely stunning how people are only now coming out of the woodwork to yell about one kind of specific cheating during one specific time period, yet they still fail to recognize that it's been prevalent throughout the game's history.

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...PGSTCJ0SK1.DTL
    And how disappointing it would be if it was discovered that cheating was as prevalent throughout the game in decades past as it is now. Like I said, maybe it was...I've seen nothing but supposition to suggest so, but these things are not frequently spoken of. But the prevalency of cheating--at a level that is causing records to fall and establishing new norms for production--appears to be at an all-time high right now. I can live with Gaylord Perry or Whitey Ford throwing a spitter, I can live with Sammy Sosa corking his bat, I can live with George Brett using too much pine tar...but havig a majority of the players on the Juice is much less palatable, at least to me.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  10. #174
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Roger Maris made me question the effect of expansion, extreme hitters parks and batting behind Mickey Mantle type of players.
    And some people score higher on standardized tests because they had better teachers. Such is life.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  11. #175
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11714227/page/2/

    The only way out of this hideous embarrassment is for Bonds to quit. Now. I’m not going to stay up waiting for him to do so. It would take a man of honor and integrity to take such a step, and we’ve already seen time and again that those are qualities foreign to him.

    Too bad you can’t administer them in a syringe.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  12. #176
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Roger Maris made me question the effect of expansion, extreme hitters parks and batting behind Mickey Mantle type of players.
    As far as I know, Maris broke no laws by playing baseball after expansion, or by batting behind Mantle-actually, didn't he hit in front of Mickey part of 1961? I would think there might be more of an advantage in having Mantle being the guy on deck while you were at bat rather than having him bat in front of you. As for playing in an "extreme hitters park"-well, he didn't. Check Maris's home and road HR totals for 1961 (Maris hit 30 HRs at home and 31 HRs on the road, if I recall correctly). Compare the parks he hit in with the parks of the 1930s or 1990s.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  13. #177
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  14. #178
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    And how disappointing it would be if it was discovered that cheating was as prevalent throughout the game in decades past as it is now. Like I said, maybe it was...I've seen nothing but supposition to suggest so, but these things are not frequently spoken of. But the prevalency of cheating--at a level that is causing records to fall and establishing new norms for production--appears to be at an all-time high right now. I can live with Gaylord Perry or Whitey Ford throwing a spitter, I can live with Sammy Sosa corking his bat, I can live with George Brett using too much pine tar...but havig a majority of the players on the Juice is much less palatable, at least to me.
    Willie Mays and Willie Stargell
    The 1910 St. Louis Browns and Nap Lajoie
    Shibe Park groundskeepers when Ashburn was playing
    Preacher Roe
    Eddie Stanky and the late 1960s White Sox
    Bobby Richardson and the 1959 batting title
    Tommy John and Don Sutton
    Norm Cash
    Babe Ruth

    Just a few more to chew on. They're all over the place.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  15. #179
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    STATEMENT BY MICHAEL RAINS, LAWYER FOR BARRY BONDS

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...eed=rss.giants

    My client, Barry Bonds, has not read the Sports Illustrated article and does not intend to. Furthermore, he does not intend to read the book from which the article is excerpted.

    Barry regards this as an unfortunate distraction to his friends and teammates at the San Francisco Giants, and to the good name and the great players in Major League Baseball.

    The San Francisco Chronicle, after announcing that it had (illegally) obtained Barry's grand jury testimony, previously published questions asked of him while under oath, and his answers. Many of the assertions raised in this article were also previously mentioned. To that extent, this is simply a duplication of previously reported information.

    Although most of the authors' supposed 200 or so "sources" for this book remain anonymous, we know and understand that one of the most prominent sources is a woman who previously attempted to extort Barry for money, and who, after that failed, told Geraldo Rivera that she never saw Barry take illegal or performance-enhancing drugs, but explained that her source of knowledge supposedly came from conversations she had with him -- conversations she intended to report in her soon-to-be published (and yet to be published) book.

    Some of the other prominent but "anonymous sources" surfaced during the BALCO investigation, and we understand that reporting their identity would also expose their lack of credibility.

    The exploitation of Barry's good name and these attempts to eviscerate his sensational accomplishments in all phases of the game of baseball (throughout high school and college, as well as 20 years playing professionally) may make those responsible wealthy, but in the end, they need to live with themselves. Beyond this -- Barry has no further comment now nor in the foreseeable future. His focus remains on staying healthy, playing baseball and doing everything he can to help the Giants play in the World Series seven months from now.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Exploitation of Barry's good name?
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  16. #180
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    Re: Bonds bombshell: Book details slugger's steroid use

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Willie Mays and Willie Stargell
    The 1910 St. Louis Browns and Nap Lajoie
    Shibe Park groundskeepers when Ashburn was playing
    Preacher Roe
    Eddie Stanky and the late 1960s White Sox
    Bobby Richardson and the 1959 batting title
    Tommy John and Don Sutton
    Norm Cash
    Babe Ruth

    Just a few more to chew on. They're all over the place.
    These are still all individuals, Cyclone, spread out over 50-60 years--hardly what could be considered "typical" or "wodespread." I'm not seeing any evidence that would lead me to view the statistics put up between 1910-1970 with the same suspicion I view the statistics from the past 20 years. So, I'm still not convinced.

    And again, to reiterate, my position isn't that steroids in and of themselves are necessarily worse than other forms of cheating--but I believe their use had become so prevalent and so commonplace in the game that it was causing the statistics for the game as a whole to be skewed. There isn't a HR title iachieved in the last ten years that hasn't been viewed with some level of skepticism by the public. I don't see that same level of scrutiny beling applied to the decades the players you listed above played in.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.


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