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Thread: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

  1. #16
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Are Buchanan and/or Wise any good with the glove?

    Their ST hitting appears as good as some other OF candidates.

    If we like Encarnacion's Florida stats, then Wise and Buchanan's ST numbers are promising, at least.

    **********AB OBP SLG OPS

    E Encarnacion 44 .521 1.068 1.589

    B Buchanan 24 .500 .792 1.292

    D Wise 38 .405 .816 1.221

    I'm simply looking for OF options (in addition to the much mentioned Denorfia and Freel) that would put Dunn back at 1B.

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  3. #17
    Pagan/Asatru Ravenlord's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    i know nothing of Buchanan defensively, but DeWayne Wise is phenominal with the glove.
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  4. #18
    Member Gainesville Red's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    I know next to nothing about DeWayne Wise. Somebody school me. I was really impressed with what I saw out of him in Orlando on Sat. Seems like he's had a good spring. How good of a prospect is he?

  5. #19
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gainesville Red
    I know next to nothing about DeWayne Wise. Somebody school me. I was really impressed with what I saw out of him in Orlando on Sat. Seems like he's had a good spring. How good of a prospect is he?
    he's not really a prospect anymore.

    he's a much better version of Reggie Taylor.
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  6. #20
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...603210388/1071
    A proven starter
    Arroyo move also solidifies defense
    BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

    SARASOTA, Fla. - The first trade of the Wayne Krivsky/Bob Castellini era could be viewed as risky.

    When Krivsky, the Reds general manager, sent outfielder Wily Mo Peña to the Boston Red Sox in exchange for pitcher Bronson Arroyo and cash, he traded a player who could blossom into one of the game's premier sluggers.

    "I can't worry about that," Krivsky said. "We're better with Arroyo in the rotation, and Adam Dunn in left field."
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    It's hard to argue with that. The players see it that way.

    "You hate to give up Wily Mo," Dunn said. "But it's for someone proven. This makes us better now."

    That's the message management is sending: We're trying to win now.

    All you have to do is look at the first trade Dan O'Brien made as general manager three years ago to see there's a philosophical change. O'Brien sent a proven big-league pitcher, Chris Reitsma, to Atlanta for two prospects, Bubba Nelson and Jung Keun Bong. Nelson was recently released; Bong has little chance of making the club.

    Arroyo, a 29-year-old right-hander, likely will be in the rotation for at least the next three years. He signed a three-year, $11.5 million contract in January. The Reds got $1.5 million in Monday's deal.

    Arroyo probably will go third in the rotation after Aaron Harang and Brandon Claussen. Dave Williams and Eric Milton will be the other starters.

    With the Arroyo trade, Reds manager Jerry Narron confirmed speculation that's been brewing for weeks: The Reds plan to start the year without Paul Wilson in the rotation.

    Dunn returns to left field, where he's played the last 4½ years. Scott Hatteberg becomes the first baseman.

    Krivsky said the Peña-Arroyo trade developed over the last two or three days. That's roughly the time frame in which it became clear the Reds' starting pitching wasn't ready to contend.

    Michael Gosling, the leading candidate to take Wilson's spot in the rotation, gave up 10 runs in Bradenton in 1/3 of an inning Saturday. That same day in Orlando, Williams gave up eight runs.

    Those outings did not increase the urgency to make the deal, Krivsky said.

    "I would have made the deal if we pitched two shutouts Saturday," he said.

    Arroyo had a better year last year than any Reds pitcher. He was 14-10 with a 4.51 ERA. He pitched 2051/3 innings and led the Red Sox with 20 quality starts.

    The Reds were 46-23 when they got a quality start - at least six innings pitched while giving up no more than three earned runs - last year.

    "We got a solid major-league starter," Narron said. "He can throw any pitch over in any count."

    The move is a major upgrade defensively for the Reds.

    "Adam Dunn is better than Wily Mo in left," Narron said. "Hatteberg is better than Dunn at first."

    The Reds set themselves up to make Monday's trade on Feb. 12, when they signed Hatteberg.

    Hatteberg is a different hitter than Peña. Peña is all about power. Hatteberg has never hit more than 15 home runs in a season.

    But Hatteberg makes contact and works the count. He's walked 432 times in his career and struck out 420 times.

    "We're very fortunate to have him," Narron said. "I can't believe he was still available."

    Hatteberg was an everyday player for the Oakland A's the last two years. Hatteberg only hit .256, but he drove in one more run than Sean Casey (59 to 58) in 65 fewer at-bats in 2005.

    He signed knowing he could end up as a bit player for the Reds. But he also was aware of the team's outfielder surplus.

    "I knew that a trade was a possibility," he said. "Whether it happens or not, you never know. But that was part of the appeal of coming here."
    Apparently you all are overanalyzing the defense thing. Dunn better than Wily Mo in left, Hatteberg better than Dunn at first, defense now better

    Also, someone needs to introduce John Fay to Aaron Harang (see bold)



    They moved fast to get this picture. I'm surprised Arroyo doesn't have tears streaming down his face.
    Last edited by traderumor; 03-21-2006 at 06:27 AM.
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  7. #21
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    "We're very fortunate to have him," Narron said. "I can't believe he was still available."


    I can't either Jerry, very hard to believe that a 36 year old first basemen with horrible defense and coming off a .677 OPS season was still available in February. Shocking I tell ya.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  8. #22
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    I like M2's proposal. Krivsky's gotten credit for being courageous in dealing Pena, but he's probably going to need a lot more to force Junior into an OF corner anytime soon.

    I don't understand why they don't stick with Dunn at first. It seems the best place for him long-term -- he's a good athlete and a great target over there -- and keeping him there presents an opportunity to really upgrade the OF defense and, at the same time, get some players into the lineup who can run.

    They're selling the trade as having defensive benefits. But I'm not buying it, especially when compared to what they could be doing by keeping Dunn at first and putting Denorfia in the OF.
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  9. #23
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Hatteberg better than Dunn at first
    I see no reason to believe that is true. Hatteberg is a short statue playing 1b. Less than zero both offensively and defensively. Doesn't seem like the way to improve your team.
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  10. #24
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve
    I don't understand why they don't stick with Dunn at first. It seems the best place for him long-term -- he's a good athlete and a great target over there -- and keeping him there presents an opportunity to really upgrade the OF defense and, at the same time, get some players into the lineup who can run.
    Exactly. Dunn will never be anything but below average in the OF. He has a chance to be very good at first and that is where he will eventually end up anyway as his speed goes away.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  11. #25
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Yep, I agree with the base note.

    The whole Womack-Hatteberg dynamic is ill-conceived.

    Hatteberg is a nice lefty bat off the bench and spot-starter at 1B. It is conceivable that Womack could be a super-sub type guy (more conceivable 2-3 years ago, but not now).

    But both players are not MLB-caliber regulars and I think that will get exposed 1-2 months into the season. I think the Reds are just fooling themselves if they believe otherwise. Narron and Krivsky spout so much baseball-speak, I have a hard time telling if they truly believe the blather they are spewing or if they are just obfuscating. I hope they are dumb like a fox and have a Plan B in place. I hope, I hope, I hope, ...

    And Junior, God bless his soul, wants so badly to be The Kid he was in Seattle and bound through CF like the gazelle he once was. But at some point in time, he has to come to grips with the player he is now. I remember going to games last year and being staggered by the lack of range Junior had. A ball would get hit, I'd think "phew, we're OK, that will get caught" and then see Junior looking like he is running in mud trying to get to it. It's not because of lack of desire or work, it's the result of all the blown hammies, tendons, etc. that have slowed him down.

    So yeah, Duun at 1B, Junior in LF, and either Denorfia or Freel in CF. Freel plays a darn fine CF. At 2B, he is servicable, but I truly fear he'll get himself (or someone else) hurt within weeks.

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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine


    I can't either Jerry, very hard to believe that a 36 year old first basemen with horrible defense and coming off a .677 OPS season was still available in February. Shocking I tell ya.
    best described as an ex-catcher, who hits like a catcher and spent the majority of his time as a DH in 2005. That really explains it all.

    BP concluded their 2006 comments on Hatteberg with no single player may have damaged their teams playoff hopes in September more than Hatteberg and the ABs the A's wasted on him.
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  13. #27
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Per Fay's article:
    Arroyo had a better year last year than any Reds pitcher. He was 14-10 with a 4.51 ERA. He pitched 2051/3 innings and led the Red Sox with 20 quality starts.
    How was that better than harang last year?
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  14. #28
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker
    And Junior, God bless his soul, wants so badly to be The Kid he was in Seattle and bound through CF like the gazelle he once was. But at some point in time, he has to come to grips with the player he is now
    which is basically the worst everyday defensive CF in baseball.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  15. #29
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Anyone have John Fay's email address?

    Someone really needs to keep him honest.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  16. #30
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: If you're going to trade for pitching, how about some defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    I see no reason to believe that is true. Hatteberg is a short statue playing 1b. Less than zero both offensively and defensively. Doesn't seem like the way to improve your team.
    It doesn't matter if we believe it. The Reds believe it and have publicly said so. If they don't believe it, they will make a deal for a 1st baseman before the season starts. I could go on and on about what the Reds believe that isn't necessarily true but it really doesn't matter. Unless the fans start demanding Dunn play 1st, it probably isn't going to happen except for the occasional start there to get Freel in there.
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