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Thread: Pena traded for Arroyo

  1. #226
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    I don't like it. Now if he posts under 4 ERA, its good. I was shocked to read B Arroyo is already 29 going on 30 years old! I don't think that is exactly adding an arm for the future. I think its like trading for a Right Handed Eric Milton. But who knows, I'm just a fan. At least we kept Kearns and Dunn and I think it puts to rest some of the rumors about them leaving. I think its good for the long term because Dunn likes the outfield alot better and now he can play Left Field every day for the rest of his career (HERE!)

    The jurys out on this one, esp if Wily goes on to hit 300 or 400 HR in the AL. Might be a great DH.

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  3. #227
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Good trade.

    Improves pitching, and defense. WMP K's and massive strikeout won't be missed that much.

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  5. #228
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    That's the thing that probably ought to worry folks about Arroyo instead of a K rate that should bounce back. Arroyo's fundamental weakness is that lefties tag him a bit. Keeping LHBs in line will be his biggest challenge in 2006 and beyond.
    I really hope you're 100 percent correct on the K rate being able to bounce back. If his K rate bounces back, I'm firmly supportive of the deal.

    Interesting you mention how he gets tagged by lefties; his K splits are amazing and it's interesting to compare 2004 to 2005 side-by-side:

    Code:
               PA/K   OPS Against
    
    2004 LHB   7.65     .768
    2005 LHB  10.20     .831
    
    2004 RHB   4.01     .660
    2005 RHB   7.36     .657
    Give me that .768 OPS against vs. lefties that he had in 2004 and I can tolerate it, but that .831 mark last season is fugly. If you're right about the K rate bouncing back - which I hope you are as it makes or breaks the deal for me - then I'm hoping he can also give us that OPS against vs. lefties that he put up in 2004 vs. the mark he threw up in 2005.
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  6. #229
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    So what do you guys think? What does it say about Kearns/Dunn future here?

  7. #230
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    The Reds absolutely could have gotten another. Want a reason why I think so? how about 1.5 million reasons?

    Two teams with surplusses: Reds with OF's, Red Sox with pitching. So who has the upper hand?

    Easy. The Reds do. Here is why. The Sox are perennially battling to win the AL east. They have the horses on the mound. In fact they added a stud from Florida. So they have the arms to spare, but lost some offense. The Reds aren't going to compete this year even if they add Roger Clemens. The rotation AND bullpen have too many holes and question marks. Because of that, trading WMP right now isn't necessary. They can do so at the break, and likely get a better return. Not from a contender, but from maybe a bubble team looking to get a little oomph in the offense, or even a bottom dweller like TB (Kazmir anyone?) See, the Reds didn't have to make a move, but the Sox are devoid of power in their system. And Trot Nixon is getting a mite long in the tooth. RF will be an adventure for WMP, but he'll make up for that by turning the Green Monster into something resembling artillery fire target practice. The wall may actually show bruising.

    1.5 mil sounds about what you would pay a 1st round pick around the 20th pick. I could be wrong on that though, but it sounds pretty close. Most teams I think would expect any player worth 1.5 mil to be a top prospect. It's why you pay 1.5 mil in the first place. So why get cash and not an arm?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #231
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigg Red Smokey
    I believe Mo Pena brought a lot of balance to the lineup. Pitchers at least have to respect his ability to put one "out" at any time. I just do not think that they can replace that with anyone on the roster or anyone in the system.

    This team had better figure out that the young talent that virtually comes up through the sytsem, is the talent that you want to keep around. How many teams out there trade this type of player? Eventually this trade will come down to what we get out of Arroyo, chances are after a season or a season and a half at the GAB it will be considerably less than a Mo Pena.
    I actually am on the other side of this one. I was so worried having Dunn, Griffey, Kearns, wily Mo, EE, LaRue, etc. from a stand point of going through long slumps and new records in SO. Not that the replacement is what I want to settle for, but I really don't know him that well. I think also Dunn expressed he really didn't want to start and I think organization is fed up with Wily Mo. Doesn't go to AFL couple years back and gets what 4-5 AB in the WBC. He needed to be on the team and get some reps. Raw talent is one thing, but this trade is good IMO. We need pitching so bad and if someone had to go of our OF this is the guy. If we can get an Ace pitcher now that would help fill in all the gaps better at the pitching spots - Well, except closer.

    I did noticed he did pitch over 200 innings last year and his contract is very Reds friendly. I know not many agree with me, but I love the deal - well, I like it .
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

  9. #232
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    .So why get cash and not an arm?
    Probably two-fold. I'm guessing that Krivsky was getting a little anxious right about now, with Pena coming back to the club, and with the season fast approaching..couple that with Gosling not proving to be "dominant", Wilson's health, Milton's health, and Harang's scare.

    The second part is that Boston probably wasn't willing to give up a prospect the Reds wanted in return. Since Krivsky was anxious to make a deal right now, he settled for cash instead of arguing for a prospect and potentially killing the deal.

    The kicker is that the original article mentioned that other teams were interested. Wonder what they were offering....
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  10. #233
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader
    Probably two-fold. I'm guessing that Krivsky was getting a little anxious right about now, with Pena coming back to the club, and with the season fast approaching..couple that with Gosling not proving to be "dominant", Wilson's health, Milton's health, and Harang's scare.

    The second part is that Boston probably wasn't willing to give up a prospect the Reds wanted in return. Since Krivsky was anxious to make a deal right now, he settled for cash instead of arguing for a prospect and potentially killing the deal.

    The kicker is that the original article mentioned that other teams were interested. Wonder what they were offering....
    Then that's the sign that he's a bad salesman, or an even worse judge of talent and situations. The Reds are not going to win the division or the WC with either WMP or Arroyo alone. Is there another RH bat like WMP's (young, deveveloping) on the market right now? No.

    The Reds had the leverage. Krivsky went all in too soon. Had he waited, he could have gotten more, especially considering there was interes from other teams.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  11. #234
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Uck. What really gets to me is that I'm punished twice since I've unfortunately developed into a Yankees fan(I swear I used to hate them but they got to me somehow).
    "Announcing your plans is a good way to hear god laugh" -Al Swearengen, Deadwood

  12. #235
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    The Reds absolutely should be worried about Arroyo's K rate. Pitchers who can sustain success without striking batters out are only slightly more common than unicorns and jackelopes. Arroyo is stuck relying on the Reds defense to generate most of his outs for him. Is anyone happy about that?

    The Reds had the leverage. Krivsky went all in too soon. Had he waited, he could have gotten more, especially considering there was interes from other teams.
    Exactly.
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  13. #236
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    But see..we don't have to have a hole at 1st base, we can put Freel or Deno out in the OF and have Dunn at 1st (where he will end up anyway) and be much better off, starting Hatteberg over those other options just doesn't make any sense.
    I do wonder what the thinking is. Is there some unwritten rule about penciling in Freel as a starter somewhere? What does the guy have to do to prove he deserves and everyday role? I'm tired of the "super-sub" excuse, particularly now that there's a glaring hole in the lineup.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  14. #237
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    Then that's the sign that he's a bad salesman, or an even worse judge of talent and situations. The Reds are not going to win the division or the WC with either WMP or Arroyo alone. Is there another RH bat like WMP's (young, deveveloping) on the market right now? No.

    The Reds had the leverage. Krivsky went all in too soon. Had he waited, he could have gotten more, especially considering there was interes from other teams.
    Could be. Also could be that R Cast told him to move on it, and do before Pena got back from the WBC, and that's the best deal that was on the table. We don't know. We probably won't know.

    Personally, I think they could have gotten more for WMP at the deadline this year if they were going to trade him. Obviously, for some reason, they didn't want to wait that long.
    'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.'
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  15. #238
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader
    Could be. Also could be that R Cast told him to move on it, and do before Pena got back from the WBC, and that's the best deal that was on the table. We don't know. We probably won't know.

    Personally, I think they could have gotten more for WMP at the deadline this year if they were going to trade him. Obviously, for some reason, they didn't want to wait that long.
    All of what you typed is bad, bad, bad for the Reds future if true. To not get maximum return when you have leverage, and yes, the Reds had leverage is a crime.

    That leverage was named 1.5 mil, The Baltimore Orioles, and the Chicago Cubs.

    Like I said, I'm not dissatisfied with getting Arroyo. But there needed to be more. I bet the Reds regret that there wasn't more by June.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. #239
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    The Reds had the leverage. Krivsky went all in too soon. Had he waited, he could have gotten more, especially considering there was interes from other teams.
    That's pure speculation...we have no way of knowing what other offers were being entertained for WMP. And had WMP started off slowly--say, hitting .230-7-30 by June, people would have been moaning about the lost opportunity to trade him while the iron was hot. I'm not saying that WMP is going to tank this year, only that it's a waste of time to play the "What if?" game. Unless someone has knowledge of Krivsky turning down a better offer than Arroyo, I think this deal is fine. WMP doesn't have near the value that some people would like to place on him--not now, anyway. I think the return the reds got here is acceptable.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  17. #240
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    All of what you typed is bad, bad, bad for the Reds future if true. To not get maximum return when you have leverage, and yes, the Reds had leverage is a crime.

    That leverage was named 1.5 mil, The Baltimore Orioles, and the Chicago Cubs.

    Like I said, I'm not dissatisfied with getting Arroyo. But there needed to be more. I bet the Reds regret that there wasn't more by June.
    I fully, 100% agree with you. I was playing devils advocate on how it could have happened....and like I said, I'm purely guessing, we'll probably never know WHY they made the move today...
    'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.'
    -Snoop on his retirement

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