Turn Off Ads?
Page 21 of 36 FirstFirst ... 1117181920212223242531 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 315 of 526

Thread: Pena traded for Arroyo

  1. #301
    Member Spitball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,626

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    So we traded the next Sammy Sosa. How many winning teams did the first Sammy Sosa play on?

    I like the trade. I see any upgrade in the pitching as a positive, and Arroyo pushes a poor number five pretender out of contention for the rotation. And what was Wily Mo going to contribute to this team? Poor defense, few walks, lots of K's, and some homers in 11-10 loses. Hmmm...I think this team has a surplus of all four.

    And I don't believe for a second that there was anyone offering respectable starting pitching for the likes of Wily Mo Pena. Teams don't build championships with outfielders in this day and age. And, though Arroyo might not be a huge improvement, he does upgrade the rotation.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #302
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Williamsport, PA
    Posts
    12,365

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Hatteberg is a one-year rental at first base. I'll take that any day for three years of Arroyo.

    Arroyo will give us innings and if he can duplicate his 14 wins of 2005, I'll take that and say thank you.

    Now maybe Krivsky can make a deal for Scott Williamson from the Cubs to fill our closer needs.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  4. #303
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,365

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Hatteberg at 1B gves us far better defense there then Dunn (and even Casey).
    That's actually untrue. There's no fielding benefit to having Hatteberg out there.

    From ESPN...

    Seasonal averages are kinda ho-hum

    .268 B/A .356 OB% .403 SLG% .759 OPS
    3-year splits:

    .265 BA/.349 OBP/.384 SLG

    At age 36, Hatteberg's best days are behind him. Offensively, he's Casey-lite at Casey's worst.

    A disciplined hitter, Hatteberg is reaping the benefits of working the count in his favor. Calling on a quick bat, he is able to both use the gaps and drive pitches with occasional power. He hits lefthanded and righthanded pitchers equally well. The 72 walks to 48 strikeouts he generated last year is not only his largest differential between the two stats in a season, but it is nearly the inverse of the 70 strikeouts and 40 walks Hatteberg posted in 1997, his first full year in the majors. He hit .615-2-23 and slugged 1.231 over 13 at-bats when the bags were full last year.
    Ah. You're looking at an ESPN report on Hatteberg from pre-2005.

    And he is no speedster like Casey. Did I mention that he has one career stolen base (back in 2001).
    Yeah, but he can sure hit into Double Plays like Casey. 22 last season.

    I figured that either Kearns or Pena were on the trading block. I'm glad it was Pena that was traded. As far as return value - I agree with registerthis - Pena's stock was over-rated. I really don't know what people expected in return for him? Especially in the area of starting pitching. The guy we got in return, who won 14 games last year, is pretty league average. How he will do at GAB is yet to be seen. Arroyo pitched 178 innings in 2004, and then 205 last year.

    But we were going into this season possibly facing have scrubs like Gosling, Standridge, or Germano as the "filler". Something had to be done. And I think that is the best we were gonna get for the likes of a Pena.
    Given the context, the Reds gained nothing from a Run Differential perspective. Isn't it about time they did that with a trade?

    In fact, isn't it about time the Reds made a deal where folks were actually excited about the return for a real reason? Instead we have to justify the return by downtalking what the Reds gave up.

    In short, it's high time a Reds GM actually got better than "...the best we were gonna get for the likes of a <insert player name>." I, for one, long for the day when we're dazzled by true genius rather than have to look for ways to tolerate a front office that hasn't shown anything but truly minimal competence.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  5. #304
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Williamsport, PA
    Posts
    12,365

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Don't rule out Adam Dunn getting some playing time at lst base as the Reds will try to figure how to get Ryan Freel into the lineup everyday.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  6. #305
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    55,672

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    They don't have to figure it out

    Freel to LF and Dunn to 1st if they don't trust Deno yet.

    Easy.

    But..the Reds refuse to do it the right way and will waste at bats on Hatteberg as a starter.
    Go Gators!

  7. #306
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,983

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    That's actually untrue. There's no fielding benefit to having Hatteberg out there.



    3-year splits:

    .265 BA/.349 OBP/.384 SLG

    At age 36, Hatteberg's best days are behind him. Offensively, he's Casey-lite at Casey's worst.



    Ah. You're looking at an ESPN report on Hatteberg from pre-2005.



    Yeah, but he can sure hit into Double Plays like Casey. 22 last season.



    Given the context, the Reds gained nothing from a Run Differential perspective. Isn't it about time they did that with a trade?

    In fact, isn't it about time the Reds made a deal where folks were actually excited about the return for a real reason? Instead we have to justify the return by downtalking what the Reds gave up.

    In short, it's high time a Reds GM actually got better than "...the best we were gonna get for the likes of a <insert player name>." I, for one, long for the day when we're dazzled by true genius rather than have to look for ways to tolerate a front office that hasn't shown anything but truly minimal competence.

    I like this move quite a bit, largely because it shifts some of the Reds trading chips from offense to pitching. The Reds for too long have been that guy in a gin rummy game who looks to go out quickest, without taking a chance on picking up the discard pile once a while to build up more points. Sitting on commodities till they molder and rot, not thinking a couple of moves ahead, waiting for "just the right time, and just the right deal." Tomorrow never comes. The Reds needed to make a move, a shift in thinking--they did so by improving the 2006 product and garnering a chip in Arroyo that I think could truly be parleyed into something pretty great at the deadline, much more than what Wily Mo could bring, even under the best of circumstances. And the Reds STILL have offense to burn.

    But I try to look at moves one at a time, and honestly this is Wayne's only good move thus far. Too many other things really nag me about Krivsky's leanings, so this move doesn't settle my nerves altogether about the direction of this club.

  8. #307
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Williamsport, PA
    Posts
    12,365

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    One thing that is forgotten is this team led the league in strikeouts. I think the Reds want hitters who can put the ball in play and manufacture some runs instead of waiting for the three-run homer.

    If anyone think that we were going to get a number 1 or 2 pitcher for Pena is fooling themselves. To get a pitcher that won 14 games and pitched 200 innings for a young outfielder with alot of holes to his game isn't a bad deal at all.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  9. #308
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    portland, oregon
    Posts
    14,746

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    nice analogy FCB.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  10. #309
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Bright, Indiana USA
    Posts
    5,573

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I'd say PECOTA's got a solid baseline for Arroyo there. It's important to remember that last year was the first time he went above 200 IP. He hit the wall after the All-Star break and had to fight through it. I expect he'll come back wiser, stronger and better prepared for a 200 IP season this year.

    Arroyo has real good movement on his pitches and pretty sharp control when he's on, so I'm reasonably confident his K rate will rise in 2006. All things considered, he should be a solid pitcher. Heading into the season with Harang, Arroyo and Claussen is the best Reds have been for a front three in the rotation since 1999, though each guy probably has a #3 pitcher ceiling (200+ IP, ERA in the high 3.00s). Harang might be able to deliver those innings with a sub-3.50 ERA, but that would be more of a one-shot deal than a consistent run.

    I expect Pena will be a pretty big bat for the Red Sox in the coming years. I'll stick by my Ron Gant comparison.

    Ideally you wouldn't want to trade a young Ron Gant for a Dave Burba type, but the Reds need to practice some Realpolitik. I'll resurrect something princeton said a long time ago about the JimBo Reds, they should be willing to lose a trade to get what they need. It seems to me they just did that. Pena probably will be the better talent out of this trade. But can he pitch? No. Arroyo can.

    Also, Pena shouldn't be the last OF the Reds trade this year for pitching. Kearns and Jr. should be on the block for the right price. There's a lot of work left to do. The good news is it this move indicates Krivsky's up for doing it. The Reds need to be remade and 200 IP of a guy who should be at least an average pitcher isn't a bad start.
    Man, I haven't been able to visit in a while.

    It took 5 pages before a rational thoughtout analysis of this trade?!?

    I'd say the Reds were LUCKY to get a pitcher of Arroyo's abilities. And I'm not saying that Arroyo is great. I'm saying a lot of people have over-valued WMP in here.

    The Reds Sox were over-loaded by one pitcher and the Reds came in and improved there starting pitching without hurting their defense or their overall offense.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  11. #310
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    55,672

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Freel is the best leadoff hitter on the team, he should be in there every day if they don't want to wait for the 3 run HR.
    Go Gators!

  12. #311
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    portland, oregon
    Posts
    14,746

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by CougarQuest
    Man, I haven't been able to visit in a while.

    It took 5 pages before a rational thoughtout analysis of this trade?!?

    I'd say the Reds were LUCKY to get a pitcher of Arroyo's abilities. And I'm not saying that Arroyo is great. I'm saying a lot of people have over-valued WMP in here.

    The Reds Sox were over-loaded by one pitcher and the Reds came in and improved there starting pitching without hurting their defense or their overall offense.

    nice to see you around CQ.

    I agree that it was a pretty good trade.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  13. #312
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,365

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I like this move quite a bit, largely because it shifts some of the Reds trading chips from offense to pitching. The Reds for too long have been that guy in a gin rummy game who looks to go out quickest, without taking a chance on picking up the discard pile once a while to build up more points. Sitting on commodities till they molder and rot, not thinking a couple of moves ahead, waiting for "just the right time, and just the right deal." Tomorrow never comes. The Reds needed to make a move, a shift in thinking--they did so by improving the 2006 product and garnering a chip in Arroyo that I think could truly be parleyed into something pretty great at the deadline, much more than what Wily Mo could bring, even under the best of circumstances. And the Reds STILL have offense to burn.

    But I try to look at moves one at a time, and honestly this is Wayne's only good move thus far. Too many other things really nag me about Krivsky's leanings, so this move doesn't settle my nerves altogether about the direction of this club.
    FCB, this swap didn't positively affect the Reds projected Run Diff for 2006. In fact, they lose at least a game in a Win column if it plays out the way I suspect it will. If it were different and Arroyo were a better pitcher, you know as well as anyone that I'd be 100% behind the trade. As is, I can't do it.

    Hoping that Krivsky can find a trade partner at the deadline is all well and good, but that would mean that Arroyo is actually more productive than he projects to be. If that's the case, the Reds won't trade him. By my estimation, the only way Arroyo becomes available is if he performs well below expectations and, at that point, he's worth less than what was spent on his initial acquisition.

    You know me. I'm all for doing something when it needs to be done. That being said, if it's a linear move (and this one is), that move better add more than it subtracts in the grand scheme of things. This one doesn't and I expect that we'll need a minimum of 10 Runs added somewhere to even it out. So we hope for the next one that actually does what we need it to do.

    To me, that's the tomorrow that never comes while we see linear move after linear move while hoping beyond hope that we're instead seeing only the first in a solid chain of trade wins in order to build some kind of talent cache.

    Basically, this move is checkers when the Reds need to be playing chess.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  14. #313
    Member Gainesville Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    2,166

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    I wish the season would hurry up and start. Everyone's too smart, and lay out arguments that are too good. I read FCB's post, and think it's great. He's right, I agree with it. Then I read Steel's post, and decide he's right. Nice work tonight.

    So the conclusion I've come to is that the season needs to start so Arroyo and Pena can decide for me who I agree with.

  15. #314
    ShadezNation ramp101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Gotham City
    Posts
    2,718

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    so is Dunn moving back to the OF?
    woo woo woo, you know it

  16. #315
    Member ochre's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    4,266

    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by ramp101
    so is Dunn moving back to the OF?
    That's the rumor. Well, actually that's what Narron and Krivsky have basically said anyway.
    4009




Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25