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Thread: Pena traded for Arroyo

  1. #361
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    I never believed Dunn would play first base. He has improved a lot in left field. After Narron came in, Dunn became more aggressive going after fly balls and base hits and he is now a semi-decent outfielder. I think it was always the plan to trade an outfielder, probably always the plan to trade WMP.

    What troubles me is the Casey trade. If you were adding an Arroyo for WMP, why was it necessary to trade Casey for Williams? I can only see this as a salary dump. I hope I am wrong and Williams works out well.

    I agree with other posters that part of the offensive problem is the apparent refusal to play Freel every day. I think this is a mistake. Indeed, I wouldn't mind a lineup of Freel, Womack, Lopez, Griffey, Dunn, Kearns, EE, Larue. That would require Dunn playing first. Yes, Lopez hitting third.

    If Hatteberg has to play regularly, too bad Casey isn't around. Same type of hitter, just much better. I like Hatteberg as a backup with this team, not as a regular.

    Finally, I would not be shocked if there are additional deals forthcoming. Hard to see Krivsky keeping Griffey's salary if Jr. is healthy and has value to bring young talent. Other than Dunn and Lopez, don't think anyone is too safe.

    trading Jr. would be a mistake on Krivsky's part if he want to stay in good graces with Reds "fans." I'm all for it if you can get a decent return, with lots of pitching.
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  3. #362
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Kc, I think it's fair to say that DanO didn't know that Krivsky would deal Pena for Arroyo at the time he pulled the Williams for Casey trigger.

    Though I think this kicks the door wide open to moving Williams at this moment in time. I'd so test Tony LaRussa's stated man-love for Williams. Williams for Adam Wainwright. Cardinals get a lefty long man. Reds get a kid ready to play the Harang 2004/Claussen 2005 role.
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  4. #363
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Though I think this kicks the door wide open to moving Williams at this moment in time. I'd so test Tony LaRussa's stated man-love for Williams. Williams for Adam Wainwright. Cardinals get a lefty long man. Reds get a kid ready to play the Harang 2004/Claussen 2005 role.
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  5. #364
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Though I think this kicks the door wide open to moving Williams at this moment in time. I'd so test Tony LaRussa's stated man-love for Williams. Williams for Adam Wainwright. Cardinals get a lefty long man. Reds get a kid ready to play the Harang 2004/Claussen 2005 role.
    Alright whose willing to spike his coffee with LSD before Wayne makes the call?
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  6. #365
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    I don't characterize this deal as settling at all. Krivsky just landed a major league starter for a young player who's yet to establish himself. I understand that there's folks out there who are down on the starter and high on the young player, but I'd think that there should be some recognition that others are high on the starter and down on the young player.
    Granted, it's mostly about how you perceive Pena and Arroyo as players. I happen to think most people who are down on Pena feel that way because of the previous GM's impotence. They're so eager for action that they'll rationalize it by downplaying his talent and his potential. Those who are high on Arroyo ("high" is the operative word, IMO) seem to be rationalizing the deal by overestimating his abilities and his potential value to the team.

    But to quote Dennis Miller, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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  7. #366
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I understand that there's folks out there who are down on the starter and high on the young player, but I'd think that there should be some recognition that others are high on the starter and down on the young player.
    Plus, it helps that the Reds went out and bought Bronson Arroyo when his value was down -- coming off a season where his peripherals were not to their previous level and where he had more people in front of him that were set to push him out of the rotation.

    The Reds are buying low, which gives them an opportunity to come out ahead on this deal if Arroyo's numbers tick up and they find a pitching-desperate buyer at some future deadline.
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  8. #367
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    The Reds are buying low.
    unless the Red Sox are

  9. #368
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    The Reds are buying low, which gives them an opportunity to come out ahead on this deal if Arroyo's numbers tick up and they find a pitching-desperate buyer at some future deadline.
    it seems like the potential upside people discuss of every trade we make is that someone will do well and can flipped for something else.

    I am kinda partial to the idea of trading for someone we might want to keep for a while.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  10. #369
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    it seems like the potential upside people discuss of every trade we make is that someone will do well and can flipped for something else.
    That's what happens when most of your acquisitions are in the mediocre-to-slightly-above-mediocre range.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  11. #370
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    Plus, it helps that the Reds went out and bought Bronson Arroyo when his value was down -- coming off a season where his peripherals were not to their previous level and where he had more people in front of him that were set to push him out of the rotation.

    The Reds are buying low, which gives them an opportunity to come out ahead on this deal if Arroyo's numbers tick up and they find a pitching-desperate buyer at some future deadline.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Those who are high on Arroyo ("high" is the operative word, IMO) seem to be rationalizing the deal by overestimating his abilities and his potential value to the team.
    I don't see anyone forecasting tiny ERAs and huge wins for the guy. In fact I'd say most of the support I've read for him has been downright rational, namely that he could deliver 200 IP of solid pitching. Now, that might prove to be wrong when the season comes around, but given his track record and level of experience it's hardly an overestimation. Arroyo has shown some facility as a major league pitcher and he has worked himself up to the 200 IP plateau. I haven't read the trade thread on the other side of the board, so maybe there's some folks engaged in some expectations inflation over there.

    As for rationalization, the normal Reds pitching rationalization we see is that the new pitcher will be better than the perpetrators he's replacing. As we've learned, that's usually not true. It's also my problem with Dave Williams. I don't expect him to be any different than if the Reds still had Ramon Ortiz around.

    However, I do expect Arroyo to be able to deliver a solid season. He isn't going to win a Cy Young, but I do think you can hand him the ball 33 times and get generally good pitching out of him. I expect he'll finish with an ERA+ in the three digits and that he'll give the team something in the 200 IP neighborhood. As such, there's no rationalizations needed for that kind of pitching. It's what the Reds need and hot damn if that's actually what they get.
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  12. #371
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    it seems like the potential upside people discuss of every trade we make is that someone will do well and can flipped for something else.
    and that's a problem because...
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  13. #372
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    and that's a problem because...
    you never end up with someone worth keeping
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  14. #373
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    you never end up with someone worth keeping
    I'm pretty sure that is implied with the suggestion. If not, it should be. Roster turnover is a necessity once you identify your cornerstone players and lock them up if you want to win consistently.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  15. #374
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Williams for Adam Wainwright. Cardinals get a lefty long man. Reds get a kid ready to play the Harang 2004/Claussen 2005 role.
    M2,

    Please don't scare me with commrnts like this.

    I only wish the Cardinals would start the season with Wainwright in the rotation.

  16. #375
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Pena traded for Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life
    M2,

    Please don't scare me with commrnts like this.

    I only wish the Cardinals would start the season with Wainwright in the rotation.
    Your terror is my joy.

    Plus, LaRussa likes vets and Jocketty likes trading for vets. I figure Wainwright is a goner one way or another at some point this season. There's no space for him in the rotation (why Jason Marquis hasn't been dealt I don't know) and if a young arm gets a shot, it'll be Reyes.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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