Originally Posted by Kc61
trading Jr. would be a mistake on Krivsky's part if he want to stay in good graces with Reds "fans." I'm all for it if you can get a decent return, with lots of pitching.
Originally Posted by Kc61
trading Jr. would be a mistake on Krivsky's part if he want to stay in good graces with Reds "fans." I'm all for it if you can get a decent return, with lots of pitching.
"My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton
Kc, I think it's fair to say that DanO didn't know that Krivsky would deal Pena for Arroyo at the time he pulled the Williams for Casey trigger.
Though I think this kicks the door wide open to moving Williams at this moment in time. I'd so test Tony LaRussa's stated man-love for Williams. Williams for Adam Wainwright. Cardinals get a lefty long man. Reds get a kid ready to play the Harang 2004/Claussen 2005 role.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Originally Posted by M2
"I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
- - Rowdy Roddy Piper
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man"
- - Fletch
Alright whose willing to spike his coffee with LSD before Wayne makes the call?Originally Posted by M2
Granted, it's mostly about how you perceive Pena and Arroyo as players. I happen to think most people who are down on Pena feel that way because of the previous GM's impotence. They're so eager for action that they'll rationalize it by downplaying his talent and his potential. Those who are high on Arroyo ("high" is the operative word, IMO) seem to be rationalizing the deal by overestimating his abilities and his potential value to the team.I don't characterize this deal as settling at all. Krivsky just landed a major league starter for a young player who's yet to establish himself. I understand that there's folks out there who are down on the starter and high on the young player, but I'd think that there should be some recognition that others are high on the starter and down on the young player.
But to quote Dennis Miller, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
"I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful
Plus, it helps that the Reds went out and bought Bronson Arroyo when his value was down -- coming off a season where his peripherals were not to their previous level and where he had more people in front of him that were set to push him out of the rotation.Originally Posted by M2
The Reds are buying low, which gives them an opportunity to come out ahead on this deal if Arroyo's numbers tick up and they find a pitching-desperate buyer at some future deadline.
Cincinnati Reds: Farm System Champions 2022
unless the Red Sox areOriginally Posted by Caveat Emperor
it seems like the potential upside people discuss of every trade we make is that someone will do well and can flipped for something else.Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
I am kinda partial to the idea of trading for someone we might want to keep for a while.
That's what happens when most of your acquisitions are in the mediocre-to-slightly-above-mediocre range.it seems like the potential upside people discuss of every trade we make is that someone will do well and can flipped for something else.
"I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful
Exactly.Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
I don't see anyone forecasting tiny ERAs and huge wins for the guy. In fact I'd say most of the support I've read for him has been downright rational, namely that he could deliver 200 IP of solid pitching. Now, that might prove to be wrong when the season comes around, but given his track record and level of experience it's hardly an overestimation. Arroyo has shown some facility as a major league pitcher and he has worked himself up to the 200 IP plateau. I haven't read the trade thread on the other side of the board, so maybe there's some folks engaged in some expectations inflation over there.Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
As for rationalization, the normal Reds pitching rationalization we see is that the new pitcher will be better than the perpetrators he's replacing. As we've learned, that's usually not true. It's also my problem with Dave Williams. I don't expect him to be any different than if the Reds still had Ramon Ortiz around.
However, I do expect Arroyo to be able to deliver a solid season. He isn't going to win a Cy Young, but I do think you can hand him the ball 33 times and get generally good pitching out of him. I expect he'll finish with an ERA+ in the three digits and that he'll give the team something in the 200 IP neighborhood. As such, there's no rationalizations needed for that kind of pitching. It's what the Reds need and hot damn if that's actually what they get.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
and that's a problem because...Originally Posted by flyer85
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
you never end up with someone worth keepingOriginally Posted by traderumor
I'm pretty sure that is implied with the suggestion. If not, it should be. Roster turnover is a necessity once you identify your cornerstone players and lock them up if you want to win consistently.Originally Posted by flyer85
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
M2,Originally Posted by M2
Please don't scare me with commrnts like this.
I only wish the Cardinals would start the season with Wainwright in the rotation.
Your terror is my joy.Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life
Plus, LaRussa likes vets and Jocketty likes trading for vets. I figure Wainwright is a goner one way or another at some point this season. There's no space for him in the rotation (why Jason Marquis hasn't been dealt I don't know) and if a young arm gets a shot, it'll be Reyes.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
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