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Thread: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

  1. #31
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    If the D were such a concern then JR being moved to LF or RF should have been issue 1.
    Exactly. As M2 said the other day, Krivsky is only paying lip service to improving the defense as long as he's willing to leave Junior in CF.

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  3. #32
    Lover of Trivialities Doc. Scott's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    I'm telling you, it's like Jim Bowden and toolsy outfielders or Dan O'Brien and the Eighty-Seven Express:

    Wayne Krivsky looooooooves him some 1B leather. Fallout from one Doug Mientkiewicz.

    What I am hoping for is that the same thing shows itself as it relates to Torii Hunter and Ken Griffey Jr.

  4. #33
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Wayne Krivsky looooooooves him some 1B leather. Fallout from one Doug Mientkiewicz.
    That's a carpet love that should wilt in the humid air of a Cincinnati summer.

  5. #34
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    I don't get all the hoopla over Hatteberg at first. It would be nice to upgrade the position, but there seem to be several eyewitnesses that testify to the "Dunn is not an option" verdict. I have not read one eyewitness nor statistic that says Dunn was playing acceptably nor showing any natural aptitude for the position.

    Is it the issue over Hatteberg's defense? I don't believe there is a real good statistic to show the true defensive value of first basemen. Range is not the key issue at first since very few playable balls are pulled or poked in that direction. The vast majority of balls handled by first basemen are on throws from infielders and that requires instinctive movement on contact in order to set for receiving the ball. I understand Hatteberg is very good at this aspect of the position. (BTW, I recently saw a defensive statistic that ranked Kevin Millar near the top of defensive range for first basemen. That is an absolute joke.)

    To me, the problem shouldn't be Hatteberg, because I believe he is an acceptable stopgap for now. I'd rather have him setting up to receive throws from young infielders (Encarnacion, Lopez) than an inexperienced Dunn. These young infielders will have enough problems without dealing with Dunn's learning process.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  6. #35
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    The problem about poor outfield defense is that it costs you doubles and triples. Poor IF defense costs you mostly singles. Having a Freel or Denoria in LF and Dunn at first would save us more runs than Dunn in LF and Hatteberg at 1B.

    The problem with Hatteberg at 1B is that his bat will likely hurt us over the other defensive alignment and the defensive improvement is likely less that we're led to believe. Not having Wily Mo out there is a positive step defensively. But the step down offensively will probably negate the runs we just saved.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #36
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick
    The problem about poor outfield defense is that it costs you doubles and triples. Poor IF defense costs you mostly singles. Having a Freel or Denoria in LF and Dunn at first would save us more runs than Dunn in LF and Hatteberg at 1B.

    The problem with Hatteberg at 1B is that his bat will likely hurt us over the other defensive alignment and the defensive improvement is likely less that we're led to believe. Not having Wily Mo out there is a positive step defensively. But the step down offensively will probably negate the runs we just saved.
    I don't buy there is an upgrade defensively with Freel over Dunn. I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

    Dunn's inexperienced defensive movement and lack of timing at first could have further reaching effects than just one infield position. Encarnacion, for one, is a young player with developing throwing skills who would not benefit from Dunn's learning experience.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  8. #37
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    I don't buy there is an upgrade defensively with Freel over Dunn. I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

    Dunn's inexperienced defensive movement and lack of timing at first could have further reaching effects than just one infield position. Encarnacion, for one, is a young player with developing throwing skills who would not benefit from Dunn's learning experience.
    I'll grant you the fact that we really don't know the differences here. Any arrangement in which Wily Mo isn't playing LF is better than one where he is. That said, I'd rather have Denorfia/Freel in the lineup over Hatteberg.

    Of course, the real problem is Junior's horrible range in CF. He may always catch what he gets to, but with him in CF the alleys are nice and wide. I'm not sure how much I buy the health excuse for keeping him in CF. Denorfia or Kearns even in CF would help the defense significantly.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #38
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    First base isn't as easy to play as many people make it out to be.

    I don't know how much work Adam has done towards the transition. If he didn't come to spring training with the attitude that he was going to work his butt off improving his craft, we'll all get to see a good bit of his learning curve during the regular season.

    It's not an automatic that you can put a good athlete over there and play on the major league level.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  10. #39
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.
    What's to doubt? He's fast. He gets a good break on the ball. He takes great routes and has a good arm. He's a good MLB CF. The Reds instead seem bound, set and determined to play a CF whose range has dropped to nil.

    Jr.'s been a glaring defensive liability for four seasons and, IMO, the Reds aren't going anywhere until he's moved out of the middle of the field.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  11. #40
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    JR is a vet, and the same thing that gets Womack, Aurilia and Hatteberg a lot of at bats will leave JR in CF, he's a veteran player who has "earned it"
    Go Gators!

  12. #41
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    What's to doubt? He's fast. He gets a good break on the ball. He takes great routes and has a good arm. He's a good MLB CF. The Reds instead seem bound, set and determined to play a CF whose range has dropped to nil.
    This is really beside the point I was making, but, where are you getting this information? I'm curious because everything I've read has him quite average. This is a typical report:
    by Jonathan Mayo (MLB.com) :
    Chris Denorfia, OF

    From a tools perspective, Denorfia isn't going to blow anyone away. Most of his skills grade out to average or a tick above. But he's an overachiever who gets the most out of his abilities.
    Do you have a link to a scouting report that reports on his speed, breaks, routes?
    Last edited by Spitball; 03-25-2006 at 08:23 AM.
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  13. #42
    Glenn Braggs
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    First base isn't as easy to play as many people make it out to be.
    Indeed. I also find it odd that some here seem to disregard that the vast majority of outs is recorded at first base. Having at least decent defensive skills as first baseman is a key factor for the overall infield defense as well.

  14. #43
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Thunder
    Indeed. I also find it odd that some here seem to disregard that the vast majority of outs is recorded at first base. Having at least decent defensive skills as first baseman is a key factor for the overall infield defense as well.
    Exactly, and we have at least two erratic arms on the left side.

    I didn't play first very often, but I found it the most difficult position for me. The footwork can be hard, especially when a shortstop's throw is doing a nasty curve into the dirt a foot before your glove.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  15. #44
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by deltachi8
    princeton's wife thinks your sexy too?

    I thought it was just Raisor?

    Hey, she apparently finds several of us to be sexy
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #45
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    First base isn't as easy to play as many people make it out to be.
    While I wouldn't say any position is exactly "easy" to be at a major league level, I do believe that firstbase is the easiest position to play. It certainly is the easiest position I ever palyed.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."


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