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Thread: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

  1. #46
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    I don't buy there is an upgrade defensively with Freel over Dunn. I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

    Dunn's inexperienced defensive movement and lack of timing at first could have further reaching effects than just one infield position. Encarnacion, for one, is a young player with developing throwing skills who would not benefit from Dunn's learning experience.
    Yesterday's assignment of Denorfia to the minors is one of the more discouraging moves made by the Reds since Krivsky became GM. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006 anyway. I would like to see the Reds play guys such as Denorfia, who might help them win in 2007-08 and who still have potential, rather than keep guys such as Womack and Aurilia and Hatteberg.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  3. #47
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Yesterday's assignment of Denorfia to the minors is one of the more discouraging moves made by the Reds since Krivsky became GM. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006 anyway. I would like to see the Reds play guys such as Denorfia, who might help them win in 2007-08 and who still have potential, rather than keep guys such as Womack and Aurilia and Hatteberg.
    Considering the situation, this might be best for Denorfia. He can play everyday and wait for his chance, be it an injury or slump by someone. If he stays and sits, he probably wouldn't be as sharp when his call comes...and when was the last time the Reds went through a season without an outfielder on the DL or out for significant time?
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  4. #48
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc. Scott
    Wayne Krivsky looooooooves him some 1B leather. .
    Then why did he sign Hatteberg?

    As far as Dunn playing 1st IMO he was better than Casey last year. He has so much more range.

  5. #49
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    This is really beside the point I was making, but, where are you getting this information? I'm curious because everything I've read has him quite average. ... Do you have a link to a scouting report that reports on his speed, breaks, routes?
    Have you seen him play the game? His speed, breaks and routes are pretty obvious when you do. Mind you, all you've got to be is an average CF to be vastly better than Jr.

    Sometimes I think scouts drop the ball on guys like Denorfia. He's at least average in every phase of the game now that he's featuring some pop in his bat. He may not have an extraordinary skill, but he's got the complete package and defense is probably his strong suit.

    He's probably got 60-65 range, 60 speed, a 55-60 arm, 55 hit for average and 50 power. The power could dip a bit in the majors, but he should be a 15 HR guy with close to 40 doubles and 7 or so triples in the majors.
    Last edited by M2; 03-25-2006 at 12:21 PM.
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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Yesterday's assignment of Denorfia to the minors is one of the more discouraging moves made by the Reds since Krivsky became GM. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006 anyway. I would like to see the Reds play guys such as Denorfia, who might help them win in 2007-08 and who still have potential, rather than keep guys such as Womack and Aurilia and Hatteberg.
    Agreed. To build on that, what's discouraging about it is that it indicates that the Reds haven't yet fully grasped where they're at and put together a comprehensive plan to rise out of it.

    This team has got to favor youth. The Reds are never going win by tweaking the current roster. The way out involves hastening the arrival of what's coming next.

    I'm all right with Denorfia getting another two or three months in AAA, but he's probably part of the long-range plan. I don't know if the Reds have reached that conclusion yet. I don't know that they will until Denorfia replaces the next OF dealt for pitching ... and that's what I find deflating about this move -- I'm not sure the team is thinking past opening day yet.
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  7. #51
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Denorfia deserves a look, but I'm not sold that he is this team's answer in centerfield after 1 good minor league season. If Dunn were to have stayed at first base, I would have liked to have seen Denorfia get a look in CF with Junior moving to left. Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

    From what I have seen of Denorfia, he looks like he could be a servieceable player, but I haven't seen anything that makes me want to jump up and down to see him play. With that said, I still think he is the best option that the Reds have, should someone go down or be traded. Freel would deserve some serious consideration, as well, if he is not going to be playing every day at second. I would like to see Freel at second on a daily basis.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  8. #52
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    The problem is, as others have stated, is that this team isn't going to win this year, but they aren't taking steps to prepare for winning in the future. There is nothing to gain but giving Scott Hatteberg & Tony Womack ABs over Chris Denorfia & Ryan Freel. Whether or not the team is better this year isn't the question -- it's likely a matter of winning 71 or 72 games. But you need to know who you have next year and the year after that -- and leaving guys on the bench or in the minors doesn't accomplish that.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #53
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
    ... but I haven't seen anything that makes me want to jump up and down to see him play.
    And that's why scouts overlook his type. He's not going to reinvent the wheel in front of you and you don't get to see the cumulative effect of everything he does well in a sitting. You might come away with something small, like his bat speed is faster than you thought (ergo his power increase the past two years) or that he covers more ground than you thought. Even when he makes a good play in the field I'm guessing it gets chalked up to hustle more than ability. Yet that hustle moves at a good clip, breaks on contact and takes a direct route to the ball every time. In a more athletic-looking or ballyhooed package what he does would be considered ability instead of hustle.

    Denorfia's just a baseball player and I'm guessing he'd be a pretty solid approximation of what you'd get from, say, Coco Crisp. That he doesn't set people's hair on fire means that he's probably the guy you should keep while you deal away guys with better advance press like Kearns for the pitching you need.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  10. #54
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I'm all right with Denorfia getting another two or three months in AAA, but he's probably part of the long-range plan. I don't know if the Reds have reached that conclusion yet. I don't know that they will until Denorfia replaces the next OF dealt for pitching ... and that's what I find deflating about this move -- I'm not sure the team is thinking past opening day yet.
    I think Krivsky has an idea of what needs to be fixed but (as you pointed out to FCB in past threads) the roster makeover isn't going to be finished by opening day. In particular, kicking Griffey out of center field may be a battle he's not yet prepared to fight, and here's why:

    To me, the near-immediate signing of Dunn and moving him back to LF was a clear indication that Dunn's the lead dog in Krivsky's plan. He's not going to be the guy moved to a position where he's not comfy for the sake of others, and I wouldn't be surprised if "You'd rather play left? OK" was part of the contract negotiation that got him to sign for reasonable numbers. Whatever difficulties that imposes will be dealt with in turn.

    Bringing it back to Griffey, if I'm right, left field's not going to happen. Maybe Kearns is dealt for pitching, opening up right field as a possibility. But if he isn't, then for Griffey, that leaves first base... or another team. Neither of those things will happen right now, although I wouldn't be surprised if a first baseman's mitt appears in his locker at some point.
    Last edited by IslandRed; 03-25-2006 at 02:44 PM.
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  11. #55
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    He's probably got 60-65 range, 60 speed, a 55-60 arm, 55 hit for average and 50 power. The power could dip a bit in the majors, but he should be a 15 HR guy with close to 40 doubles and 7 or so triples in the majors.
    A right handed Mark Kotsay, cheap and pretty good.

    A superstar? nope..but teams like the Reds are dreaming if they wait for every prospect to be a superstar in waiting.
    Go Gators!

  12. #56
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    You guys are gonna laugh at me, and maybe I was drunk, but when I saw Deno play in person last season, he reminded me of Johnny Damon in the field.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  13. #57
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Have you seen him play the game? His speed, breaks and routes are pretty obvious when you do. Mind you, all you've got to be is an average CF to be vastly better than Jr.

    Sometimes I think scouts drop the ball on guys like Denorfia. He's at least average in every phase of the game now that he's featuring some pop in his bat. He may not have an extraordinary skill, but he's got the complete package and defense is probably his strong suit.

    He's probably got 60-65 range, 60 speed, a 55-60 arm, 55 hit for average and 50 power. The power could dip a bit in the majors, but he should be a 15 HR guy with close to 40 doubles and 7 or so triples in the majors.
    M2 I need to get you to scout school in Sept. You were prety close to what I had. Here are my marks for Denorfia based on seeing him 7 times this spring.

    Range 68-70 Speed 70 Arm 58-60 58 Hit for Avg 50 Power 65 Arm Accuracy I have sen him close on balls that Damon, Crisp, Baldelli, and Griffey do not get to. When I mean "do not get to" I mean they fall at least a step short. That's the difference between getting out of a big inning and giving up 2 extra runs.

    I posted earlier this spring that Denorfia was a lot faster than I remembered. He strikes the ball well and I have seen his approach dramatically change for the better this spring. He probably needs 200 AB's with his new approach before he becomes consistent. Johnny Almaraz is high on him and has commented to me twice on how proud he is of Chris. Denorfia has an average arm but who cares? Griff's arm has been average for two years and it has not dramatically affected the Reds.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  14. #58
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark
    M2 I need to get you to scout school in Sept. You were prety close to what I had. Here are my marks for Denorfia based on seeing him 7 times this spring.

    Range 68-70 Speed 70 Arm 58-60 58 Hit for Avg 50 Power 65 Arm Accuracy I have sen him close on balls that Damon, Crisp, Baldelli, and Griffey do not get to. When I mean "do not get to" I mean they fall at least a step short. That's the difference between getting out of a big inning and giving up 2 extra runs.

    I posted earlier this spring that Denorfia was a lot faster than I remembered. He strikes the ball well and I have seen his approach dramatically change for the better this spring. He probably needs 200 AB's with his new approach before he becomes consistent. Johnny Almaraz is high on him and has commented to me twice on how proud he is of Chris. Denorfia has an average arm but who cares? Griff's arm has been average for two years and it has not dramatically affected the Reds.
    Just makes me more upset that he's in AAA.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  15. #59
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    Just makes me more upset that he's in AAA.
    The Bats have a chance to contend
    Go Gators!

  16. #60
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark
    M2 I need to get you to scout school in Sept. You were prety close to what I had. Here are my marks for Denorfia based on seeing him 7 times this spring.

    Range 68-70 Speed 70 Arm 58-60 58 Hit for Avg 50 Power 65 Arm Accuracy I have sen him close on balls that Damon, Crisp, Baldelli, and Griffey do not get to. When I mean "do not get to" I mean they fall at least a step short. That's the difference between getting out of a big inning and giving up 2 extra runs.
    Whoa! TC, I greatly admire your opinions, but your range and speed numbers are up there. The guy has made all of seven big league starts so I obviously haven't seen much of him, but I think I'd have noticed if he were a 70 type speed guy. A 70 would be well above average.
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