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Thread: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

  1. #181
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    It would be difficult to find two less instinctual or effective outfielders than Long and Sanchez


    it really isn't THAT difficult. We find 'em all the time.

    It's our great gift.

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  3. #182
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Aaron Heilman might be available in a trade now. Omar Minaya seems like the type who might have been interested in WMP. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  4. #183
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Aaron Heilman might be available in a trade now. Omar Minaya seems like the type who might have been interested in WMP. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.
    No way does New York ever trade Heilman for an outfielder they don't need. If Heilman is traded, I guarantee they receive some pitching in return, not a no field outfielder.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  5. #184
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Arryo for Heilman?
    Go Gators!

  6. #185
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    I'm all for acquiring Heilman...for the bullpen.

  7. #186
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    Arryo for Heilman?
    Heilman is less than two years younger and not as polished as Arroyo. Heilman has been great in relief, but struggled as a starter. Arroyo has proven himself as a starterand is signed for three years. What is Heilman's status? And who says he is available??? If he is, there has to be a reason the Mets would move this guy and that would have to be addressed. Pitchers like Heilman usually are not traded unless there is a reason or a need to be filled. The Mets don't have any holes that I'm aware of.

    Arroyo pitched a great game today.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  8. #187
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    Heilman is less than two years younger and not as polished as Arroyo. Heilman has been great in relief, but struggled as a starter. Arroyo has proven himself as a starterand is signed for three years. What is Heilman's status? And who says he is available??? If he is, there has to be a reason the Mets would move this guy and that would have to be addressed. Pitchers like Heilman usually are not traded unless there is a reason or a need to be filled. The Mets don't have any holes that I'm aware of.
    Arroyo pitched a great game today.
    Heilman can actually strike batters out at a high rate -- that's a great thing when your defense is a bad as the Reds'. God forbid the Reds take a chance on a guy like that when a "Proven Starter" is available (nevermind that the starter has only proven himself to be mediocre at best).
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  9. #188
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Heilman can actually strike batters out at a high rate -- that's a great thing when your defense is a bad as the Reds'. God forbid the Reds take a chance on a guy like that when a "Proven Starter" is available (nevermind that the starter has only proven himself to be mediocre at best).
    With each post of regret over this trade, I get a glimpse at the paralysis by analysis that plagued the DanO era.

  10. #189
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    With each post of regret over this trade, I get a glimpse at the paralysis by analysis that plagued the DanO era.
    Again, patience is different than impotence.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  11. #190
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Again, patience is different than impotence.
    Just ask Bradon Larson.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  12. #191
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Again, patience is different than impotence.
    Yeh, and I'm sure that's the way DanO would call it, too.

    Watching Arroyo pitch today, I was impressed. He was ahead all day. He was locating the zone with that curve and was hitting the inside and outside corners with his fastball. He fearlessly attacked Manny and came out on top. Just a very well pitched game and reason for some hope.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  13. #192
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    With each post of regret over this trade, I get a glimpse at the paralysis by analysis that plagued the DanO era.
    Why would you equate the position of proven performance evaluators to the methodology of an completely incompetent GM?

    Obviously, the Pena/Arroyo swap has resulted in two camps of thought and NEITHER has ever backed standing pat for the sake of standing pat. Nor has either camp once forwarded the idea of movement for movement's sake.

    Many proponents of this trade are reasonable and credible. It's the reason you gave for glomming onto their position. But many opponents of the trade are just as reasonable and credible yet they're equated with Dan O'Brien-level sensibility?

    C'mon. You know better.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  14. #193
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Why would you equate the position of proven performance evaluators to the methodology of an completely incompetent GM?

    Obviously, the Pena/Arroyo swap has resulted in two camps of thought and NEITHER has ever backed standing pat for the sake of standing pat. Nor has either camp once forwarded the idea of movement for movement's sake.

    Many proponents of this trade are reasonable and credible. It's the reason you gave for glomming onto their position. But many opponents of the trade are just as reasonable and credible yet they're equated with Dan O'Brien-level sensibility?

    C'mon. You know better.
    It has to do with the continued trotting out of mythical prospects and now Aaron Heilmann is thrown out there. It is an endless loop of "coulda done better if we'd just waited a little while longer." That's DanO logic for doing nothing while waiting for values to increase or for the perfect deal to fall in his lap. I'll stand by my comparison.

  15. #194
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    It has to do with the continued trotting out of mythical prospects and now Aaron Heilmann is thrown out there. It is an endless loop of "coulda done better if we'd just waited a little while longer." That's DanO logic for doing nothing while waiting for values to increase or for the perfect deal to fall in his lap. I'll stand by my comparison.
    And that's interesting because the vast majority (if not the totality) of the folks you're drawing your opinion from would have waived Pena at least two years ago.

    And no one has yet positioned that the "perfect" deal is just going to fall in any lap. The right deal takes work. My impression of Dan O'Brien is that other teams consistently waited to prey on him. And that was the case because he didn't have the evaluation skills to be the predator. Now, do you think I represent prey or predator? That's an easy answer.

    The return for every valuable piece right now has to go further to changing the fortunes of the franchise. That's the point of contention. Some thing Arroyo was enough. But then, most of those folks WOULD think Arroyo is enough being that Pena was a valueless player two years ago. What they're supporting now is selling short on Pena. And that is, based on the numbers, a reasonable position.

    I understand the reasoning. In most cases, I'd agree with it. I just don't agree with it in this particular case. For tangible reasons you've never been able to counter. And yes, one of those reasons is that- beyond the numbers- I've never been wrong about Wily Mo Pena. Of course, I can't remember being wrong about projecting pitching either so you'll just have to do with that what you wish.

    In short, I don't disagree with any opinion that includes the concept that Bronson Arroyo will be a MLB-average pitcher or even a bit better with the right luck. I just disagree with the mentality that Pena was sold for the right value and/or the he won't progress to the point at which more value should be available.

    Considering that I've never been wrong about Pena or pitching, I don't really understand how that makes me a Dan O'Brien comp- particularly when I was one of the first to call him out as the defective GM he was.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  16. #195
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: BP: Reds Transaction Analysis-Wily Mo Pena, Ross etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    It has to do with the continued trotting out of mythical prospects and now Aaron Heilmann is thrown out there. It is an endless loop of "coulda done better if we'd just waited a little while longer." That's DanO logic for doing nothing while waiting for values to increase or for the perfect deal to fall in his lap. I'll stand by my comparison.
    The "mythical prospects" are no more tiresome that you trotting out the endless loop of "that's DanO thinking."
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful


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