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Thread: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

  1. #46
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Just had this debate the other day. Wilt played against midgets. He plays in this day and age, and he is probably just a very good player. Who knows.
    Wilt changed the sport, when your talent is something that transcends the rules of the game and they have to change them to accomdate the style of play you're bringing to the game then you are accomplishing more than dominance over "midgets"

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  3. #47
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Walter Johnson is my choice, but don't just take my word for it, let Jonathan Richman tell you why he was great in the song "walter johnson":

    Walter Johnson

    Oh I'm a going to tell you if you don't know,
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    About a great ball player from a long time ago.
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    Who's a hero to me I ain't putting you on son.
    Cause I'm now going to tell the story of baseball's great
    Walter Johnson.
    And all through baseball he was loved and respected,
    Well bitterness in Walter Johnson it was never detected.


    Well now when pitchers throw their pitch to scare,
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    They actually try to almost hit that opposing player.
    Doo da doo da doo da doo da doo da doo da doo.
    Walter Johnson wouldn't do that not even just a little.
    He made sure he through the baseball right down the middle.
    And all through baseball he was loved and respected.
    Was there bitterness in Walter Johnson well it was never
    detected.


    Now he pitched for the Washington Senators back in 1924,
    Now, 1906,
    Now look when the Washington 9 was inclined to win,
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    Cause Walter Johnson would actually ease up a little on the
    opposition.
    That's right.
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    Now the other team mates they simply didn't get it,
    They said "Walter how come you let him hit it?"
    Now Walter just told them with his gentle smile,
    "Boys, This game isn't any fun if you don't get a hit once in a
    while."
    And all through baseball he was loved and respected.
    Was there bitterness in Walter Johnson, well it was never
    detected.


    Now a record's just a record a book is just a book.
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    This Walter Johnson that I speak of never so much as gave the
    opposing team a dirty look.
    Bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum.
    And a season's just a season and a game is supposed to be just a
    game.
    Walter Johnson cared about people more than he cared about fame.
    So all through baseball he was loved and respected.
    Ah bitterness in Walter Johnson well it was never detected.
    HOO.

  4. #48
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    let Jonathan Richman tell you why
    Oh I'm certainly not stoned, like hippie Johnny is.
    I'm straight and I want to take his place.

  5. #49
    Your killin' me Smalls! StillFunkyB's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Wilt changed the sport, when your talent is something that transcends the rules of the game and they have to change them to accomdate the style of play you're bringing to the game then you are accomplishing more than dominance over "midgets"
    I have never seen Wilt play. Would he have changed the game, had he played now?

    I'm just trying to say that it's hard to compare players from different era's.
    "And the fact that watching him pitch is like having someone poop on your soul." FCB on Gary Majewski

  6. #50
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    As far as I'm concerned, Labor Day Weekend, 1908 sealed the deal as far as Walter Johnson being the greatest pitcher ever, as he pitched three complete-game shutouts and a total of 30 scoreless innings at New York.

    Friday, September 4: Johnson pitched a five-hit shutout as Washington defeated New York, 3-0.

    Saturday, September 5: Johnson then turned around and pitched a three-hit shutout the very next day, as Washington beat New York, 6-0.

    Monday, September 7: New York state law prohibited sporting events on Sunday, so both clubs had September 6 off. But they played a Labor Day doubleheader on Monday. Johnson pitched a two-hit shutout in Game 1, as Washington won, 4-0. Johnson also started Game 2, pitching three shutout innings before leaving the game after being hit by a pitch. Washington completed the sweep by winning Game 2, 9-3. Tom Hughes got the win in relief.
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

  7. #51
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by StillFunkyB
    I'm just trying to say that it's hard to compare players from different era's.
    And you're absolutely right. Especially when it comes to the game of baseball. One has to look at the shape and conditioning of players today compared to those of yesteryear (when there was no such "animal" for the most part).

    Would a Clemens have greater success back then, then a Walter Johnson today? Babe Ruth today versus Barry Bonds then?
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  8. #52
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Rocket is the best pitcher that I ever watched.

    Word this morining is that he is going to choose between Boston and New York and come back in June or July. If he goes to New York, astrobuddy has to buy me season tickets to the Reds games.

    For some reason I don't think that is going to happen.

    for one game I would not pick him though. Maddux, Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Petitte and Schilling would probably be better choices.
    Last edited by Jpup; 04-14-2006 at 07:39 AM.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  9. #53
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by StillFunkyB
    I have never seen Wilt play. Would he have changed the game, had he played now?

    I'm just trying to say that it's hard to compare players from different era's.
    IF the court was set up like it was then, he and a few others would. They changed the lane rules adn some other things during his era (including making the courts all one size) If you put it in the contxt of today, Wilt being larger and more athletic than prior big guys then yes he would change aspects of the game.

  10. #54
    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by cincyinco
    Satchel Paige people... Satchel Paige..
    He is so near the top of my list. For a guy to have been that good past the age of 40 is rather remarkable.
    I would also go with Koufax, after he matured.
    I would also go with the professor, Greg Maddox.
    Clemens would get a huge nod.
    And finally to round out the rotation, The Big Train. Sure, he was dead ball - but he dominated. Domination is domination, no matter what the era.

  11. #55
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    While seriously considering all candidates, Satchel Paige, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Lefty Grove, Bob Gibson, Roger Clemens, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez, Nolan Ryan, etc. I have finally, after doing a bit of research, concluded who I would pick to pitch that one game if I had to choose.

    Amos Rusie. He threw so hard they had to move the mound back 10 feet 6 inches to the 60 feet 6 inches that it is today.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Rusie

    Amos Wilson Rusie (May 30, 1871 - December 6, 1942), nicknamed "The Hoosier Thunderbolt", was a hard-throwing right-handed Major League Baseball pitcher during the late 19th century. The 6-foot-1, 200 pounder strongman terrorized batters, catchers and umpires with the hottest -- and wildest-- heat ever seen in the game at that time. This is quantified by Rusie leading the league in strikeouts five times and walks five times. He nearly killed Hall of Fame Shortstop Hughie Jennings with a bean ball; Jennings remained comatose for four days before pulling through. This incident was a catalyst for officials to change the distance from the pitching rubber to home plate from 50 feet to the current 60 feet, 6 inches. This ruling was made at the start of the 1893 season, right at the peak of Amos Rusie’s pitching prowess.

    Born in Moorseville, Indiana, Rusie was 17 when he made his major league debut with the National League Indianapolis Hoosiers in 1889 and posted a 12-10 record. Indianapolis disbanded at the conclusion of the season and Rusie was transferred to the New York Giants.

    Rusie would remain with New York until 1900. In 1890, Rusie was the National League leader in strikeouts with a career best 341. Albeit, he punched out a lot of batters, he also gave up a lot of walks. His 266 walks also led the league and Rusie finished that year with a losing record, 28-33.

    From 1891-1894, Rusie was the best pitcher in baseball, winning at least 30 games in each of those seasons. In 1891, Rusie went 33-20, leading the league in strikeouts (337) and shutouts (6). In 1892, his performance dipped a bit, breaking out even with a 31-31 record.

    With the strike zone being moved back in 1893, Rusie’s strikeout total dropped from 288 to 208. Still he was league leader. The 1893 campaign was a truly extraordinary one for Amos Rusie. He had 50 complete games out of 52 starts and went 33-21.

    In 1894, Amos Rusie won pitching’s triple crown. He led the league in wins, going 36-13, strikeouts with 195, and a league best ERA of 2.78 (especially spectacular considering the league average that year was 5.32). After the conclusion of the 1894 regular season, a Pittsburgh sportsman named William C. Temple sponsored a trophy for the winner between the regular season 1st and 2nd place teams in the National League. The runner-up Giants swept the Baltimore Orioles, who featured Hall of Famers John McGraw and Wilbert Robinson, 4-0. Amos Rusie was virtually untouchable in the Temple Cup, giving up only one earned run while winning two complete games and compiling a 0.50 ERA; if that wasn’t enough, he even batted .429. Amos Rusie’s win total that year was fourth best in baseball history, since the modern pitching distance of 60’-6” was established.

    Amos Rusie won his last strikeout crown in the 1895 campaign with 201. However, he finished with a mediocre (by Rusie's standards) 23 wins and 23 losses. After a bitter contract dispute with Giants' owner Andrew Freedman, Rusie responded by publicly thumbing his nose at Mr. Freeman, which was the 19th century variant of the middle finger. He was fined $200 (he made only $2,500). Rusie refused to play until Freedman returned his money and ended up holding out for the entire 1896 season. It was a fiasco for baseball; fans boycotted and the press railed against the owners. Owners implored Rusie and Freedman to compromise; neither would budge. The holdout was finally settled just prior to the 1897 season, as the owners collaborated for recoupment of the garnished wages, as well as a $5,000 settlement. This was partially out of respect for Mr. Rusie. However, the primary motivator was the threat of legal action against the reserve clause had his case gone to court.

    Following the 1898 season, a combination of hearing damage from a line drive to the head, arm trouble, and personal problems kept him out of baseball for two years. In 1900, he was traded to the Cincinnati Reds for future Hall of Famer Christy Mathewson. In 1901, Rusie pitched poorly in three games before retiring. He finished his career with 245 wins, 174 losses, 1934 strikeouts and a 3.07 ERA.

    Rusie was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977.


    Code:
    Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     1889 18 IND NL  12  10  33  22  19   1  11  0  225.0  246  181  133  12  116  109   9   9   953       0  5.32  4.18   79 1.609
     1890 19 NYG NL  29  34  67  63  56   4   5  1  548.7  436  300  156   3  289  341   0  36     0       0  2.56  3.49  136 1.321
     1891 20 NYG NL  33  20  61  57  52   6   4  1  500.3  391  244  142   7  262  337   0  17     0       1  2.55  3.21  126 1.305
     1892 21 NYG NL  31  31  64  61  58   2   3  0  532.0  405  288  170   7  267  288   0  24     0       0  2.88  3.22  112 1.263
     1893 22 NYG NL  33  21  56  52  50   4   4  1  482.0  451  260  173  15  218  208   0  26     0       0  3.23  4.66  144 1.388
     1894 23 NYG NL  36  13  54  50  45   3   4  1  444.0  426  228  137  10  200  195   0  10     0       0  2.78  5.26  189 1.410
     1895 24 NYG NL  23  23  49  47  42   4   2  0  393.3  384  248  163   9  159  201   0  10     0       0  3.73  4.63  124 1.381
     1897 26 NYG NL  28  10  38  37  35   2   1  0  322.3  314  143   91   6   87  135  11   6     0       0  2.54  4.14  163 1.244
     1898 27 NYG NL  20  11  37  36  33   4   1  1  300.0  288  149  101   6  103  114   9  13     0       0  3.03  3.46  114 1.303
     1901 30 CIN NL   0   1   3   2   2   0   0  0   22.0   43   25   21   1    3    6   0   2   107       0  8.59  3.19   37 2.091
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     10 Yr WL% .585 245 174 462 427 392  30  35  5 3769.7 3384 2066 1287  76 1704 1934  29 153  1060       1  3.07  3.98  130 1.350
    +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
     162 Game Avg    18  13  35  32  29   2   2  0  288.3  258  158   98   5  130  147   2  11    81   0   0  3.07  3.98  130 1.350
     Career High     36  34  67  63  58   6  11  1  548.7  451  300  173  15  289  341  11  36   953   0   1  2.54  5.26  189 1.244
    245 wins by the age of 27. That's pretty impressive.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  12. #56
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    I'm presently reading Shades of Glory: The Negro Leagues and African American Baseball and I'm not so sure it wouldn't be Satchel Paige. From this and most every other thing I've read about him, he was unparalleled. I do agree Johnson would be there as well.

  13. #57
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    The best i have ever seen Koufax not even close.GO CINCY!!!!

  14. #58
    Member 15fan's Avatar
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    For the sake of argument, I'll throw another name out there: Mariano Rivera.

    In 111 & 2/3 post-season innings, his era is 0.81.

  15. #59
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Of those pitchers I've seen, Koufax. And no one else even comes close.

  16. #60
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    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Of those pitchers I've seen, Koufax. And no one else even comes close.
    And in all that time you probably never saw anyone pitch in such an extreme pitchers park in such an extreme pitching era.

    For every Sandy Koufax super season there was a Willie Davis crummy season on the other side of the coin, or a Juan Marichell/Hal Lanier.


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