Turn Off Ads?
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 72

Thread: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

  1. #16
    WKU Hilltoppers
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    255

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Bob Gibon, they lowered the mound because of him if I'm not mistaken.
    If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base
    --Dave Barry

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #17
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    25,000

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    The greatest pitcher must be a contemporary pitcher (I really don't care what anyone says--I'm incurious that way). Clemens it is. It's probably not even close.

    Twenty years from now, someone will blow Clemens out of the water. As long as they keep pumping up milk and meat with 'roids and other insane additives and smoking diminishes to non-existence and exercise becomes more targetted and efficacious, the human animal will continue to outpace its predecessor.

  4. #18
    Member chicoruiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,719

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Pre 1950: Peak value- Grove, Career value- Johnson

    Post 1950: Peak value: Koufax, Career value- Clemens

    Except for the one game I had to win I'd take Gibson. And nobody has even mentioned Spahn. And Satchel may have been the best of all of them. OK, my head hurts now...

  5. #19
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,173

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Walter Johnson.
    Exactly. The battle is for second-place because Johnson stands apart from any of the other contenders.

    Pedro Martinez has been the single most dominant pitcher I've seen and Roger Clemens has had the best overall career. Pitchers from Pete Alexander to Tom Seaver have been shining stars. Cy Young has the big pitching award named after him. Kid Nichols is history's most overlooked stellar pitcher. Lefty Grove absolutely dominated during an era of offensive explosion and would be the greatest pitcher ever expect he happens to come from the same planet as Walter Johnson. Johnson was good I sometimes have a hard time believing he really existed.

    The big train comin out the tunnel up the track.
    It's modern transportation, there's nothing that it lacks.
    I don't know where I'm going, I know I ain't comin back.
    Come along and ride the big train.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  6. #20
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Panama City Beach
    Posts
    13,771

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Exactly. The battle is for second-place because Johnson stands apart from any of the other contenders.

    Pedro Martinez has been the single most dominant pitcher I've seen and Roger Clemens has had the best overall career. Pitchers from Pete Alexander to Tom Seaver have been shining stars. Cy Young has the big pitching award named after him. Kid Nichols is history's most overlooked stellar pitcher. Lefty Grove absolutely dominated during an era of offensive explosion and would be the greatest pitcher ever expect he happens to come from the same planet as Walter Johnson. Johnson was good I sometimes have a hard time believing he really existed.

    The big train comin out the tunnel up the track.
    It's modern transportation, there's nothing that it lacks.
    I don't know where I'm going, I know I ain't comin back.
    Come along and ride the big train.
    And he could hit.
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
    - - Rowdy Roddy Piper

    "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man"
    - - Fletch

  7. #21
    Member medford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    2,084

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy
    And he could hit.
    Come on now Puffy, you're not seriously considering Bronson Arroyo are you?

  8. #22
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    5,872

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Exactly. The battle is for second-place because Johnson stands apart from any of the other contenders.
    His 1913 season seems almost fictional to me.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  9. #23
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,173

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    His 1913 season seems almost fictional to me.
    Just a mind-blowing season: 36-7, 346 IP, 0.78 WHIP, 1.14 ERA (259 ERA+). Pedro's 2000, Gibson's 1968 and Greg Maddux in 1994 and 1995 are the only modern (post-1950) seasons I'd put near that category (>200 ERA+, <9.00 WHIP)
    Last edited by M2; 04-12-2006 at 02:17 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  10. #24
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    55,680

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Sandy Koufax
    Yup, not even close.
    Go Gators!

  11. #25
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,173

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    Yup, not even close.
    Koufax had only four seasons with an ERA+ of 160 or better. Randy Johnson's done it seven times. Lefty Grove did it seven times. Greg Maddux has done it seven times. Pedro Martinez did it seven times in a row (with a career-best of 285 compared to 190 for Koufax -- Maddux 273, Grove 219, Johnson 196). Clemens has done it eight times with a career-best of 226 (in 1997). Walter Johnson also did it eight times with a career-best of 259.

    I agree it's not even close with Koufax, it's just that he's the one who's not even close. Amazing pitcher, but his legend far exceeds his accomplishments.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  12. #26
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,882

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredmachine1976
    Bob Gibon, they lowered the mound because of him if I'm not mistaken.
    No, they lowerd the mound because of this.

    Code:
    YEAR  AVG  SLG  OBA  OPS     RC      TB       EBH  ISO  SEC  BPA   IBB     HBP   GIDP    SAC    SF
    1967 .242 .357 .306 .664   12315    39027    7173 .115 .216 .396   1295    751   2245   1480    738 
    1968 .237 .340 .299 .639   11351    36958    6561 .104 .202 .379   1223    778   2217   1507    753

  13. #27
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,450

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    I think Clemens is a great pitcher and has had an outstanding career. But I think he's a bit overrated. I'm not saying he isn't one of the best 20 pitchers of all time but I don't think I'd put him in the top 10. For all his hype about being a big game pitcher he has had as many poor postseason games as he has had great games. If I had to put my money on someone to pitch a "big game" for me, I'd take guys like Gibson or Pedro or Koufax before I'd take Clemens.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  14. #28
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    7,207

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    The greatest pitcher must be a contemporary pitcher (I really don't care what anyone says--I'm incurious that way).
    I think I agree with this. If nothing else the statistics are so hard to compare. They are always in comparison of the other players of their time, not the players of all-time.

    My friends and I were discussing this a few weeks ago, and one of them made a good argument for Clemens. Clemens has an ERA differential of +1.34, higher than quite a lot of the pitchers listed here. One could argue that the ERA differential is biased in favor of pitchers in high-ERA eras, but clemens has also pitched in an era of steroids, good equipment, little ballpakrs, tightly-wrapped baseballs, and hightly trained and specialized hitters too, so that kind of evens out that argument a bit in my mind.

    Martinez, probably the most dominant pitcher I've seen at his peak, has an amazing 1.78 ERA differential. But he hasn't been as good for as long as Clemens, and his win record (admittedly a rather poor gauge, but not discountable) is nowhere near clemens's.

    I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Warren Spahn. In some ways he's quite comparable to Clemens. His differential is .56, but he's won more games and for a contending team to boot. He also habitually had a day's less rest than Clemens (again, the problem of comparing stats). But he wasn't quite as dominant, totally.

    Nolan Ryan did a wonderful job for some middling teams at times, but he also issued an awful lot of walks. Again, though, since he was pitching for poorer teams than Clemens, he might not have had the luxury of throwing as many ground balls and so on. You see, one can even argue with oneself on these things. I don't know that we can really say for sure.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  15. #29
    The Mad Monk Jaycint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Northern Kentucky
    Posts
    1,283

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    If I need one game at peak performance I'm takin' Pedro circa 2000 or so and not even thinking twice about it. I'm with FCB that the greatest has to be contemporary. I'm sure the guys from way back when were stellar during their time but would they stand up to today's hitters? Would their stuff be good enough or fast enough? Not looking for an argument by the way, just positing a few things that I really am curious about and don't have an answer to.

  16. #30
    So Long Uncle Joe BoydsOfSummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Hamilton,Ohio
    Posts
    3,850

    Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher

    Bob Owchinko of course...


    Code:
    BOB OWCHINKO
    
    GIVEN NAME: Robert Dennis Owchinko
    BORN: 1/1/1955  Detroit, Michigan  
    BAT: L  THROW: L  HEIGHT: 6'2"  WEIGHT: 190  MLB DEBUT: 9/25/1976
    
    YEAR TEAM         AGE W   L   PCT   G    GS  CG  SV  GF  IP     H    R    ER   BB   SO    ERA  RSAA
    1976 Padres       21   0   2  .000    2   2   0   0   0    4.1   11    8    8    3    4  16.62   -7 
    1977 Padres       22   9  12  .429   30  28   3   0   0  170    191   93   84   67  101   4.45  -18 
    1978 Padres       23  10  13  .435   36  33   4   0   1  202.1  198   87   80   78   94   3.56   -7 
    1979 Padres       24   6  12  .333   42  20   2   0   7  149.1  144   73   62   55   66   3.74   -2 
    1980 Indians      25   2   9  .182   29  14   1   0   2  114.1  138   71   67   47   66   5.27  -14 
    1981 A's          26   4   3  .571   29   0   0   2  12   39.1   34   15   14   19   26   3.20    1 
    1982 A's          27   2   4  .333   54   0   0   3  23  102    111   60   59   52   67   5.21  -14 
    1983 Pirates      28   0   0          1   0   0   0   0    0      2    1    1    0    0          -1 
    1984 Reds         29   3   5  .375   49   4   0   2   9   94     91   47   43   39   60   4.12   -2 
    1986 Expos        31   1   0 1.000    3   3   0   0   0   15     17    6    6    3    6   3.60    0 
         TOTALS           37  60  .381  275 104  10   7  54  890.2  937  461  424  363  490   4.28  -64 
         LG AVERAGE       50  50  .500           20  14      890.2  879  421  376  321  507   3.79    0 
    
    YEAR TEAM          HR  H/9   BR/9  SO/9  BB/9  SO/BB SHO WP  IBB HBP BFP   BK  NW  NL
    1976 Padres         0 22.85 29.08  8.31  6.23  1.33   0   1   1   0    27  1   0   2 
    1977 Padres        20 10.11 13.66  5.35  3.55  1.51   2   5   5   0   743  2   8  13 
    1978 Padres        14  8.81 12.32  4.18  3.47  1.21   1   1  12   1   851  3  11  12 
    1979 Padres        16  8.68 12.11  3.98  3.31  1.20   0   3   6   2   631  0   9   9 
    1980 Indians       13 10.86 14.72  5.20  3.70  1.40   1   7   2   2   516  0   4   7 
    1981 A's            2  7.78 12.36  5.95  4.35  1.37   0   0   2   1   164  0   4   3 
    1982 A's           11  9.79 14.38  5.91  4.59  1.29   0   4   5   0   463  1   2   4 
    1983 Pirates        1                                 0   0   0   0     2  0   0   0 
    1984 Reds          10  8.71 12.45  5.74  3.73  1.54   0   3   2   0   407  0   4   4 
    1986 Expos          1 10.20 12.00  3.60  1.80  2.00   0   1   0   0    62  0   1   0 
         TOTALS        88  9.47 13.20  4.95  3.67  1.35   4  25  35   6  3866  7  43  54 
         LG AVERAGE    75  8.88 12.29  5.12  3.24  1.58   4  26  36  17  3790  7 
    
    
    Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia
    New editions are available every October
    http://www.baseball-encyclopedia.com
    0 Value Over Replacement Poster


    "Sit over here next to Johnathan (Bench)...sit right here, he's smart."--Sparky Anderson


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25