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Thread: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

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    Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    In this article he discusses some of the best power hitters under the age of 25 and of course mentions Wily Mo. I have copied the Wily Mo part

    http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insid...ary&id=2399305

    Wily Mo Pena, 24, Boston Red Sox

    Pena
    Pena made his big-league debut at age 20 in 2002, and it seems like he's been around forever because of former Cincy GM Jim Bowden's hot air. But, hype aside, Pena has real power and appears to be coming into his own with 45 home runs in 647 at-bats the past two seasons. The right-handed slugger's career numbers don't look great (.248 BA, .477 slugging, 102 adjusted OPS), primarily because his development was retarded by spending too much time on the big club at a young age and not playing regularly.
    One scout said that Pena was "a crude and unrefined talent" -- which is the Reds' fault -- but that "his tools are plentiful. His best days are ahead even though his instincts are questionable." The Red Sox understand what a special talent they have acquired, and Pena's future will not be treated cavalierly in Beantown as it was in the Queen City.
    The part that I don't understand is that he says that the fact that he wasn't playing regularly at a young age is the Reds fault and that the Red Sox are going to treat him better. First off, I am not sure how a contract that dictates him being on the major league roster at a young age, that he signed with the Yankees is the Reds fault. The second part, is I could see somewhat him blaming the Reds for not playing him enough last year when there was a perceived log jam in the OF. But to the say that the Red Sox are going to treat him better? Is this being disingenuous considering the Red Sox are going to mainly plattoon him against LHP? If he were to have stayed he would have develop more by playing everyday, but now it seems like a step backward, back to two years ago. How does this help him develop? What am I not seeing here?

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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    I suppose Pena's ridiculous contract was also the Reds fault.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Pena's growth was retarded because of his own contract, nothing the Reds did or didnt do.

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Yea, I agree smith and reg, but the part I found most interesting is that aren't the Red Sox doing the exact same thing with him by platooning him? The whole argument he was making seems to be a contradiction.

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    We can always start up an email campaign against misinformation

    Gary Gillette, a contributor to MLB insider on ESPN.com, is the editor of the 2005 ESPN ... Gary can be reached via e-mail at GGillette@247Baseball.com.

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Absolutely classic ESPN(Y) worship of big market team and denigration of small market team, where bias trumps accuracy every time.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    I don't think Gillette was alluding to playing time but to player development and coaching, an area in which we all know the Reds have been suspect.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro
    I don't think Gillette was alluding to playing time but to player development and coaching, an area in which we all know the Reds have been suspect.
    But with Wily Mo, was that really the problem? He was never given a chance to develop. Its a interesting question, at the major league level are the Reds bad at development? Because isn't that basically the question with Wily Mo. Could have any team developed ,under his contract restrictions, better than the Reds did?

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    It was the Reds fault though. They continued to pretend that they were contendors with gaping holes (predominantly pitching) that precluded them from realistically contending. This combined with consecutive managers that were on the hot seat and knew realistically that playing Pena was going to be painful and probably a detriment to their job security.

    If the Reds had either made the decision to run Pena out there [nearly] every day, knowing he wasn't ready, but needed the work, or moved him to a team that was willing to do that, it could be said they did what they could.

    They did neither. In the end it has to be yet another indictment against Lindner and Allen, as they were the (relative) constants in the management direction. Bowden and O'Brien deserve some of the blame for not forcing the issue either way though. It's just a repeat of the Reds trying to contend and rebuild at the same time, without doing either effectively.
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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Quote Originally Posted by rdiersin
    The part that I don't understand is that he says that the fact that he wasn't playing regularly at a young age is the Reds fault and that the Red Sox are going to treat him better. First off, I am not sure how a contract that dictates him being on the major league roster at a young age, that he signed with the Yankees is the Reds fault. The second part, is I could see somewhat him blaming the Reds for not playing him enough last year when there was a perceived log jam in the OF. But to the say that the Red Sox are going to treat him better? Is this being disingenuous considering the Red Sox are going to mainly plattoon him against LHP? If he were to have stayed he would have develop more by playing everyday, but now it seems like a step backward, back to two years ago. How does this help him develop? What am I not seeing here?
    The Reds could have played him a lot more than they did. They had 3 different managers and 3 different GMs during his tenure here. That couldn't have helped much either. I don't know if he would have developed into a quality all around MLB player if he would have played more and I don't know if he ever will even if he plays on a regular basis in BOS. I see one of two things in WMP's future in BOS. He will either be trade bait or Manny's successor because Manny could flip out at any time.
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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    The Reds could have played him a lot more than they did. They had 3 different managers and 3 different GMs during his tenure here. That couldn't have helped much either. I don't know if he would have developed into a quality all around MLB player if he would have played more and I don't know if he ever will even if he plays on a regular basis in BOS. I see one of two things in WMP's future in BOS. He will either be trade bait or Manny's successor because Manny could flip out at any time.
    I agree with you that the Reds could (and should have) played him more than they did. I do agree with that. But accepting that, how can one say the Reds failed and the Red Sox are doing him right by essentially playing him the same(maybe less) than the Reds did.

    Ochre, I agree with you to a point, but honestly how many teams would have been willing to play him when he first got here? I don't think there are too many. I'm not saying that the Reds did the greatest job in the world, but to say they failed is off basis, IMO. If they failed he would have never developed. But he did, in spite of the hardships put on mainly because of his contract. I know its hard to say the Reds management did something right and saying they failed is much more fun, but I can't honestly see how they failed. At worst they did average considering the circumstances, IMO.

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Quote Originally Posted by rdiersin
    I agree with you that the Reds could (and should have) played him more than they did. I do agree with that. But accepting that, how can one say the Reds failed and the Red Sox are doing him right by essentially playing him the same(maybe less) than the Reds did.

    Ochre, I agree with you to a point, but honestly how many teams would have been willing to play him when he first got here? I don't think there are too many. I'm not saying that the Reds did the greatest job in the world, but to say they failed is off basis, IMO. If they failed he would have never developed. But he did, in spite of the hardships put on mainly because of his contract. I know its hard to say the Reds management did something right and saying they failed is much more fun, but I can't honestly see how they failed. At worst they did average considering the circumstances, IMO.
    I don't consider him developed at this stage. To me the equation is quite simple. It was on the Reds, and only the Reds, to do whatever they could to get value out of Pena. His contract was not a surprise. Bowden knew what he was getting. Pena spent as much time in the minors as Dunn. Neither one of them are necessarily what one might consider 'polished'. Once it became mandatory that Pena be on the 25 man roster something needed to be done. If they weren't willing to play him nearly every day, why keep him? He wasn't going to develop by hitting batting practice pitching 500ft. It really makes/made little to no sense for a resource poor organization like the Reds to keep a Ferrari on blocks because they were afraid of door dings.
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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Quote Originally Posted by ochre
    I don't consider him developed at this stage. To me the equation is quite simple. It was on the Reds, and only the Reds, to do whatever they could to get value out of Pena. His contract was not a surprise. Bowden knew what he was getting. Pena spent as much time in the minors as Dunn. Neither one of them are necessarily what one might consider 'polished'. Once it became mandatory that Pena be on the 25 man roster something needed to be done. If they weren't willing to play him nearly every day, why keep him? He wasn't going to develop by hitting batting practice pitching 500ft. It really makes/made little to no sense for a resource poor organization like the Reds to keep a Ferrari on blocks because they were afraid of door dings.
    I don't consider him completely developed, no, but he has developed from what he was. So do you think he could have gotten a pitcher like Arroyo when he first came up? They waited, he got better, they got a better return.

    Adam Dunn performed well enough to earn his advancement to the majors, Wily Mo did not. He never had and OPS above .800 before he made the majors, Dunn didn't have an OPS below 0.820 in the minors. Big difference.

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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    Taking Wily Mo from a very green teenage prospect who had absolutely no guarantee of major league success to a player that in trade brings a solid starter on a cheap 3-year deal is not a development failure by any stretch of the imagination.
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    Re: Gary Gillette ESPN Young Slugger Article

    I'm not talking about what they ended up getting out of him. I'm talking about the 3-4 years of... well... whatever that was.

    No prospect is guaranteed major league success. That's the nature of any prospect. Holding on to him while he might, or might not, have an epiphany as to how to play major league baseball from the bench sure shouldn't be marked in the annals as a development coup.

    Who knows what type of pitching prospect Pena might have netted 3-4 years ago. Arroyo was available on the waiver wire back then...

    The Reds ended up wasting 3-4 years of whatevermight have been for erratic, intermittent glimpses of what Pena might, or might never, be. Throw in the fact that Pena wasn't the only prospect being jerked around and devalued during that time and I think a clear picture of developmental ineptitude appears.
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