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Thread: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

  1. #1
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Take a look at this excerpt from Gammons' article today on ESPN regarding the steroid investigations. Does anyone else read into this the way I do and have the same assumptions I do? I won't post my thoughts until later so that way I can get some unbiased opinions.

    "If Mitchell is successful and we get a full perspective on the 15-year period in baseball history, we will cast a jaundiced eye on many a home run record, by position and by top 10 all time. We may have a whole new view of some relief pitching records, and likely some more pitching perspective."

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    HS Athletic Director alexad's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    If you go after the hitters, you have to go after the pitchers also. Does that mean pitching records will also go to the garbage?
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    Davey BuckWoody's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Look out Roger Clemens.

  5. #4
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    I agree with the Clemens thing. This is the statement which got me wondering.

    "We may have a whole new view of some relief pitching records, and likely
    some more pitching perspective."

    I'm thinking Gagne's consecutive save record. There has always been whispers about him. But for Gammons to basically call out Gagne like this, do you think that Mitchell already has him in the bag? I'd say yes.

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexad
    If you go after the hitters, you have to go after the pitchers also. Does that mean pitching records will also go to the garbage?
    That would be the logical step. But, as I have been saying, there is no witch hunt. They already found the witch and now they are putting him on trial. Nobody cares if Eric Gagne used steroids. He didn't break a beloved record. He wasn't 6 saves of catching up with an icon's career mark. Nobody gives a crap about the saves record. All they care about is Bonds not going past Babe Ruth and not breaking Hank Aaron's record. If Bonds had 100 less HRs this would not be a big deal. There may not even be a steroid testing agreement. I can't stand Barry Bonds and I believe he has brought a lot of this on himself but the fans and the media clearly want Bonds stopped by any means necessary. Ironic thing is, Bonds may just be stopping himself because of the injuries.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    The thing that bugs me the most about this is that old-timers are getting treated as Saints -- as if their records are 100% pure and new records are immensely more tainted.

    Cheating was incredibly more prevelant in the pre WWII era. Using substances to enhance performance is not something unique to the last 15 years. I have no problem with putting players in the proper context. But let's make sure we fully appreciate the context of EVERY player and EVERY record. If somehow records are altered or removed, rather than simply placed in their proper context, I'll be more than a little miffed.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    I take it the other way. Gammons has been pumping up Mariano Rivera all spring -- saying we should look back at his dominance over this era and really appreciate how good he was because he was doing it against steroid users and without the aid of steroids.

    I think he's saying we should have a greater appreciation for some of the pitching accomplishments -- and I agree with him.

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    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Take a look at some of the closers during this era who had brief periods of success and flamed out suddenly:

    John Rocker
    Rob Dibble
    Mel Rojas
    Heathcliff Slocumb
    Mitch Williams
    Matt Mantei
    Kerry Ligtenberg
    Robb Nen
    Rod Beck
    Mike Williams
    Bobby Thigpen
    Eric Gagne
    Danny Graves
    Keith Foulke


    Just to name a few.
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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan
    Take a look at some of the closers during this era who had brief periods of success and flamed out suddenly:

    Danny Graves

    Just to name a few.
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    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Rocker....oh yeah, I could see that. Though I did enjoy watching him pitch.

    Dibble claims he never did, and for some stupid reason I can see him being the type who'd fess up if he actually did do something.

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    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    I wasn't aware steroids made you fat. :
    He didn't feel comfortable injecting himself with anything (might mess up a tattoo), so he wrapped his steroids up in Double Quarter Pounders instead.
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  13. #12
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    I take it the other way. Gammons has been pumping up Mariano Rivera all spring -- saying we should look back at his dominance over this era and really appreciate how good he was because he was doing it against steroid users and without the aid of steroids.

    I think he's saying we should have a greater appreciation for some of the pitching accomplishments -- and I agree with him.

    I see what you are saying, but why single out "relief pitching records"?

    The way I see it, there are 3 relief pitching records:

    Most in a season: Bobby Thigpen
    Most in a career: Lee Smith
    Most consecutive: Eric Gagne

    So maybe he is saying we should have respect for those pitching accomplishments, but why talk about "relief pitching records" instead of pitching as a whole?

  14. #13
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    I think pitchers may really suffer this year without the juice and amphetamines.

    There were 48 homeruns hit in major league baseball yesterday, and Chris Shelton and Jim Thome are doing their best to recreate McGwire vs. Sosa.
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  15. #14
    Your killin' me Smalls! StillFunkyB's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    I don't want to defend steroid use, but I honestly think that the juice doesn't help you hit HR's. Sure it helps you stay on the field, and they are incredibly dangerous to your health, but hitting HR's doesn't require bulk.

    It's wrong, should be punished, but to single one guy out, no matter how big of a jerk he is, is just wrong. They aren't going to catch any of these guys now. Your going to hear about a player here and a player there testing "positive", but it's not going to be anything major.

    It's a "too little, too late" effort, IMO. I wish we could just get passed this.
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  16. #15
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Not to start a witch hunt, but...

    In the big media frenzy over homerun hitters and steroids, it's gotten lost who was the first person caught. This guy basically got a free pass.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1701535


    Associated Press

    Anaheim Angels reliever Derrick Turnbow, the first major leaguer to test positive for a banned steroid, faces a two-year ban from international competition but will not face any sanctions from Major League Baseball.

    Turnbow, a right-hander with a 98 mph fastball, went 2-0 with 15 strikeouts in 15 1-3 innings after a Sept. 1 callup from the minors last season. He flunked the drug test during a U.S. Olympic training camp in October.

    Turnbow told his agent, Jeff Borris, that the positive drug test was the result of an over-the-counter dietary supplement. The Major League Baseball Players Association said Tuesday that Turnbow did not use anything players with big league contracts currently are prohibited from using.

    The case points once again to the dichotomy between strict international doping rules and those of baseball and other U.S. professional sports.

    "International athletes are held to much higher standards than Major League Baseball, which has a program that has very little muscle at all," said Dick Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a harsh critic of baseball's drug policies.

    The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said Tuesday that Turnbow tested positive Oct. 7 in Tempe, Ariz., for "a steroid violation, which resulted from taking nandrolone, norandrostenedione or norandrostenediol." All three of those substances are performance-enhancing steroids, the agency said in a statement.

    Gene Orza, associate general counsel of the Major League Baseball Players Association, said Turnbow had tested positive for androstenedione -- the over-the-counter supplement popularized by Mark McGwire during his chase of the home run record in 1998. Andro is now banned in the minor leagues, but is not regulated in the major leagues.

    "Derrick Turnbow did not test positive for a steroid. He tested positive for what the IOC (International Olympic Committee) and others regard as a steroid, but the U.S. government does not," Orza said.

    "Baseball players are not currently prohibited from buying and using androstenedione," Orza said in an e-mail to The Associated Press. "The IOC and its affiliates can and do ban whatever they feel like banning, because the athletes they exploit have no rights."

    Major League Baseball will begin penalizing players for steroid use this season after more than 5 percent of last year's anonymous tests came back positive. A first positive test for steroid use will result in treatment, but no suspension.

    Since Turnbow tested positive in 2003, he will not be required to undergo such treatment.

    Turnbow originally was drafted by the Philadelphia Phillies in 1997, and was a Rule 5 pick by the Angels in 1999. He appeared in 24 games for the Angels in 2000, but then spent the following two seasons in the minors, during which time he had a broken forearm. He impressed the Angels in his 11-game stint as a middle reliever last season, throwing as hard as 98 mph.

    "Major league baseball players are governed by an agreed-upon drug policy. There is a similar policy that applies to minor league players as well," said Angels Vice President Tim Mead. "Derrick Turnbow is on our 40-man roster, thus comes under the umbrella of the major league drug policy."

    Turnbow was not selected for the U.S. national team that played in Olympic qualifying games in November at Panama City. The team failed to qualify for the 2004 Athens Olympics.

    Paul Seiler, the executive director of USA Baseball, said Turnbow's case should not inhibit other pros from participating on national teams and facing stricter drug regulations.

    "The point is a lot of people fail to see there are 30 other guys there was no issue with, many of them top prospects," he said. "It's not like every time we go out and use professional players that we have these issues. Derrick rerpsents one in several hundred tests.

    "It seems like the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater here," Seiler said. "We don't really see it as this big black mark against the sport."
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!


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