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Thread: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

  1. #31
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    HEY!

    I'm bumping this because Newman never told us which two players we are looking at.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

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  3. #32
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Whoever makes less outs is always the best choice.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  4. #33
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    As has been stated it really depends on what you need in your lineup.....power or an OBP guy, but all things being equal I'll take A. Mainly because imo a guy who makes the fewest outs is the most valuable always imo.........lucky for us we have a guy who does both extremely well in Dunn.

  5. #34
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone
    HEY!

    I'm bumping this because Newman never told us which two players we are looking at.
    Code:
    AB H 2B 3B HR BB AVG SLG OBP OPS
    
    Player A 500 150 30 5 20 50 .300 .500 .400 .900
    
    Player B 500 140 20 0 40 30 .280 .560 .340 .900
    Maybe because they don't exist in real life

    Player B only 6 times in the history of the game and Player A ony 3 times

    Code:
    GAMES                         YEAR      G       AVG      OBA      SLG    
    1    Andruw Jones             2005      160     .263     .347     .575   
    2    Ernie Banks              1960      156     .271     .350     .554   
    3    Willie McCovey           1963      152     .280     .350     .566   
    4    Harmon Killebrew         1963      142     .258     .349     .555   
    5    Jay Buhner               1995      126     .262     .343     .566   
    6    Ned Williamson           1884      107     .278     .344     .554  
    
    SEASON
    AVERAGE BETWEEN .295 AND .300
    OBA >= .400
    SLG BETWEEN .495 AND .505
    
    GAMES                         YEAR      G       AVG      OBA      SLG    
    1    Mel Ott                  1942      152     .295     .415     .497   
    2    Gavvy Cravath            1914      149     .299     .402     .499   
    3    Jimmie Foxx              1941      135     .300     .412     .505

  6. #35
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone
    HEY!

    I'm bumping this because Newman never told us which two players we are looking at.
    I made them up entirely. It was my futile attempt at bringing up a discussion on how important consistency is in statistics such as OPS. If you want real players:

    Compare Miguel Cabrera and Morgan Ensberg:

    Cabrera:

    SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    2005 Fla 158 613 106 198 43 2 33 116 64 125 1 0 .323 .385 .561 .946

    Ensberg:

    SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    2005 Hou 150 526 86 149 30 3 36 101 85 119 6 7 .283 .388 .557 .945

    Basically the same OPS. I would rather have Cabrera. Reason? He's more consistent. This is where I believe Batting Average can be used to settle who is the better player when other stats are relatively even. Just my opinion.
    If you ain't first, you're last! - Ricky Bobby

  7. #36
    Member ochre's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    So, they are Jay Buhner and Gavvy Cravath? I've often wondered which of those two I'd rather have on my team.
    4009



  8. #37
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newman4
    I made them up entirely. It was my futile attempt at bringing up a discussion on how important consistency is in statistics such as OPS. If you want real players:

    Compare Miguel Cabrera and Morgan Ensberg:

    Cabrera:

    SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    2005 Fla 158 613 106 198 43 2 33 116 64 125 1 0 .323 .385 .561 .946

    Ensberg:

    SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    2005 Hou 150 526 86 149 30 3 36 101 85 119 6 7 .283 .388 .557 .945

    Basically the same OPS. I would rather have Cabrera. Reason? He's more consistent. This is where I believe Batting Average can be used to settle who is the better player when other stats are relatively even. Just my opinion.

    If you're looking for consistency, here's the thing...

    The guy with the higher Isolated Discipline number <OBP minus BA> will be less prone to OBP "slumps" than will the guy with the lower IsoD. Couple that with the fact that Ensberg has the higher Isolated Power number as well <SLG minus BA> and it adds up to more consistency from an Ensberg profile over the long haul because that type of player is still producing opportunities during periods in which the Hits aren't falling.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  9. #38
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500
    A
    I agree.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  10. #39
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newman4
    Basically the same OPS. I would rather have Cabrera. Reason? He's more consistent. This is where I believe Batting Average can be used to settle who is the better player when other stats are relatively even. Just my opinion.
    That doesn't seem to follow logically, though. If Ensberg's OBP is equal with Cabrera's, despite having a lower BA, doesn't that make his OBP less BA-driven and less susceptible to hitting slumps?

    EDIT: Never mind, just saw Steel's post, who explained it better than I did.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  11. #40
    Member smith288's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Which player has more sacrifice flyouts? I cant make a decision until I know which player can do that rather than hit a homerun.

  12. #41
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newman4
    I made them up entirely. It was my futile attempt at bringing up a discussion on how important consistency is in statistics such as OPS.
    Ah, ok. It never entered my mind that they weren't real.

    Thanks for the explanation.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

  13. #42
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    If you're looking for consistency, here's the thing...

    The guy with the higher Isolated Discipline number <OBP minus BA> will be less prone to OBP "slumps" than will the guy with the lower IsoD. Couple that with the fact that Ensberg has the higher Isolated Power number as well <SLG minus BA> and it adds up to more consistency from an Ensberg profile over the long haul because that type of player is still producing opportunities during periods in which the Hits aren't falling.
    Steel, the IsoD refers to basically how often the guy gets on base in ways other than hits and the IsoSlg is how often he gets hits that result in more than a single. Since both of these numbers are higher for Ensberg then obviously he A.) Walks at a higher rate B.) More of his hits are for extra bases. Correct? Cabrera gets hits at a higher rate. Correct?
    If you ain't first, you're last! - Ricky Bobby

  14. #43
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newman4
    Steel, the IsoD refers to basically how often the guy gets on base in ways other than hits and the IsoSlg is how often he gets hits that result in more than a single. Since both of these numbers are higher for Ensberg then obviously he A.) Walks at a higher rate B.) More of his hits are for extra bases. Correct? Cabrera gets hits at a higher rate. Correct?
    You are correct on IsoD. IsoP is basically additional bases after the first acquired per Hit.

    Players with higher IsoD and higher IsoP rates tend to be more consistent than more BA-driven guys because they tend to provide more opportunity when the Hits aren't falling and tend to produce higher quality Hit events even when acquiring few during a slump.

    A good familiar example would be Adam Dunn from April 18th to April 25th this year. During that span, Dunn went 2-for-24 at the plate. But hidden in that slump are the 11 Bases on Balls Dunn also acquired. Those Walks don't help the Slugging Percentage during a slump like that, but Dunn produced a .371 OBP during those 8 games (13 non-Out events/35 Plate Appearances).

    That's an extreme advantage for a team from a consistency standpoint because the lineup is a dynamic system over the course of a season. Slumps are unpredictable within the context of your day-to-day lineups. The key is non-Out event quality. Teams that produce higher non-Out event quality over time tend to produce more consistent Run Scoring patterns as well as Run Scoring volume due to the fact that the slumping portion of the lineup will still be able to produce non-Out events. Basically, high IsoD/IsoP guys who you don't think are doing stuff during a slump might actually be doing a lot more for the team than low IsoD/IsoP guys.

    Secondary Average might also be another excellent tool to use, but that's a statistic for another day.

    And my apologies for not responding to your earlier question about how to find things like Run Scoring pattern data. Yes, I looked up the data on the number of Runs Scored per game by every MLB team last season.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  15. #44
    Who Dey!! GridironGrace's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    Player A will have MORE runs scored and MORE RBI's with those EXTRA Base Hits and all those Walks

    I'd take Player A all Day over player B
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  16. #45
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Which Player Would You Rather Have?

    C
    Go Gators!


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