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Thread: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

  1. #1
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Let me start out by saying that this is not a post to bash Ken Griffey Junior at all. I love Junior, he has been my favorite player since I was 6, and he was the reason I became a Reds fan. That being said the last night's game opend my eyes to how bad is range really is. He just cannot be an everyday center fielder anymore.

    Let's look at some stats. In games where Freel on Deno started look at the amount of runs we give up.

    4/13 @ Chicago (Freel) 3
    4/14 @ St. Louis (Freel) 0
    4/15 @ St. Louis (Freel, but Dave Williams started ) 9
    4/16 @ St. Louis (Freel) 8
    4/17 vs. Floria (Freel) 1
    4/18 vs. Florida (Freel) 12
    4/19 vs. Florida (Freel) 8
    4/20 @ Milwaukee (Freel) 8
    4/21 @ Milwaukee (Freel) 1
    4/22 @ Milwaukee (Freel) 11
    4/24 @ Washington (Freel) 2
    4/25 @ Washington (Freel) 5
    4/26 @ Milwaukke (Freel) 0
    4/28 vs. Houston (Freel) 4
    4/29 vs. Houston (Freel) 3
    4/30 vs. Houston (Freel) 3
    5/1 vs. St. Louis (Freel) 1
    5/2 vs. St. Louis (Freel) 2
    5/3 @ Colorado (Freel) 3
    5/4 @ Colorado (Deno) 1
    5/6 @ Arizona (Freel) 3
    5/9 vs. Washington (Freel) 7
    5/21 @ Tigers (Freel) 1

    23 games, 96 runs, 4.17 runs per game

    With Griffey in CF

    4/3 vs. Chicago 16
    4/5 vs. Chicago 6
    4/6 vs. Pittsburg 5
    4/7 vs. Pittsburg 6
    4/8 vs. Pittsburg 9
    4/9 vs. Pittsburg 5
    4/11 @ Chicago 2
    5/10 vs. Washington 6
    5/11 vs. Washington 4
    5/12 vs. Philly 8
    5/14 vs. Philly 2
    5/16 @ Pittsburg 9
    5/17 @ Pittsburg 7
    5/18 @ Pittsburg 8
    5/19 @ Tigers 4
    5/20 @ Tigers 7

    16 games, 104 runs, 6.5 runs per game

    Now as you can see there is an over 2 run per game difference when Griffey is in center then when Freel or Deno are playing. Now is that all Griffey's fault? No, but some of it is and the numbers don't lie.

    Now it isn't like Griffey is useless or anything. In 18 games he has driven in 18 runs, and he has had 2 HUGE homers vs. Washington and the Tigers so without a doubt he can still stick. Like someone else said in another thread you can't just give away 100 RBI's a year and trade Junior for nothing.

    Griffey's problem is not catching the ball, it is range. This is exactly why I think he would be an excellent defensive left fielder. It would be easier on his legs, and better for the team. Add that to having Dunn move to 1st and your defense imrpoves 10 fold.

    Now I don't know if Freel is the answer in Center because he seemed to struggle with the bat at the end of his stint before Griffey came back, and I think he is an assest when he can play 5 positions. I have also read that Deno may not have the range when he fills into his body to play center everyday either. So maybe like OBM we need to make a trade for a centerfielder like Dukes from Tampa. All I know is something needs to be done about it.
    Last edited by reds44; 05-21-2006 at 08:55 PM.

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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Interesting data. Griffey has lost at least two or three steps in the past few years (understandably). The list of guys who continue to play above-average defense in CF after the age of 35 is probably a short one, and dominated by speed merchants.

    Moving Griff to LF is the ideal solution, but will require tact on Narron/Krivsky's part because you never know how a veteran like that will react.

  4. #3
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    I don't think Jr should be in CF either; but your stats really don't specifically pinpoint or illustrate that the increase in runs allowed was due to Jr's CF play?..... not getting to balls, misplaying them, etc.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I don't think Jr should be in CF either; but your stats really don't specifically pinpoint or illustrate that the increase in runs allowed was due to Jr's CF play?..... not getting to balls, misplaying them, etc.
    I think this post ...

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=32

    and this post ...

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=21

    might help help you out with what you're looking for, and both posts are actually in the same thread.
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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    I think this post ...

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=32

    and this post ...

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=21

    might help help you out with what you're looking for, and both posts are actually in the same thread.
    Do you mind if I add that to my post?

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    Firin Away Jr's Boy's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Reds44 if you can find a team that will eat the remainder of Griffey's contract then i'm all for it.

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's Boy
    Reds44 if you can find a team that will eat the remainder of Griffey's contract then i'm all for it.
    Where in my post does it say trade Ken Griffey Jr?

  9. #8
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Griffey's problem is not catching the ball, it is range. This is exactly why I think he would be an excellent defensive left fielder. It would be easier on his legs, and better for the team. Add that to having Dunn move to 1st and your defense imrpoves 10 fold.[Quote]

    It seems most of us agree KGJ to LF, Dunn to 1B and Denorfia or Freel in CF improves the defense.

    Some have said KGJ will not move to LF.
    Some have said Dunn doesn't want to play 1B.
    I say BUNK.

    I believe they both would change positions, if asked to do so for the betterment of the Team.

    It's up to Narron or WK to ask them. (JMHO)

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    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    I started a thread about 2 weeks ago about how everyone on the team is told were to play except for Jr. He gets to choose. I got slammed, and was told basically I was a Griffey hater. I'm not. I want what is best for the team and it ain't Jr. in center. He is an employee of the Reds and should be told that he is moving to a different position, for the good of the team. If he is a team player, he will accept it. All of this Jr. is a hall of famer crap has got to end. He is a first round hall of famer...no doubt. With that being said, what is good for the team in 2006 should take priority. Bench did move to third...right? He knew he was less affective behind home, he could extend his career moving to a different position, and he knew his bat was still important to the line-up. Moving to third is a lot harder than moving to a different outfield position or 1st base.

    (I just posted this on "my trip to Detroit"...this is a better place to post it.)
    Not this year...maybe a Wild Card

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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    This team is so rotten on defense that moving Griffey would barely solve anything. This season can't be fixed on this subject. You have to flip Felipe and Phillips, put Dunn at 1b and that's not something that's gonna happen in mid May.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  12. #11
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    I think your right Cedric - spring training 07 you can do alot of this. However, I think Griffey to LF and Dunn to 1b could be done tomorrow as Griffey shoudl not have a problem (ability wise) moving to LF and DUnn has played enough 1b that he will be fine.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

  13. #12
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    I'm just curious. Not being mean-spirited at all.

    When will this die? It's the same old sing-song every day. It gets old. Real old. Griffey will be placed somewhere else when he's asked to do it. It's the same with Dunn. For some reason Jerry Narron and his coaches and/or WayneK have decided it's in the best interests fo the club to keep them where they are.

    And like Cedric said, it really makes no difference. With our pitching and the other 7 positions being fair to poor as far as defense is considered, it wouldn't mean ten games a year and most of those ten games would have little or nothing to do with Ken Griffey Jr. playing centerfield.
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    Member CTA513's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's Boy
    Reds44 if you can find a team that will eat the remainder of Griffey's contract then i'm all for it.
    Reds missed that chance last year.

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    Who Dey!! GridironGrace's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Tell me, aside from Dunn/Kearns. Who on this team has the ARM Jr has?

    NOT FREEL

    NOT DENO


    And JR aint gonna run to Left feild and "STEAL" a fly ball from Dunn either *cough* Freel *cough*

    Someone coulda got hurt there.

    When Freel Throws someone out from Deep CF, then i'll START to listen to the otherside of this debate, Until then Ken Griffey JR is MY CF.
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  16. #15
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center

    Quote Originally Posted by GridironGrace
    Tell me, aside from Dunn/Kearns. Who on this team has the ARM Jr has?

    NOT FREEL

    NOT DENO


    And JR aint gonna run to Left feild and "STEAL" a fly ball from Dunn either *cough* Freel *cough*

    Someone coulda got hurt there.

    When Freel Throws someone out from Deep CF, then i'll START to listen to the otherside of this debate, Until then Ken Griffey JR is MY CF.
    Until he blows out his hamstring running for a ball in the gap. And true, it can happen in LF but it is more likely to happen in CF where you need more range.


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