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Thread: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

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  1. #1
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Starting a new thread or post to advertise a personal web site. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.
    It seems like there are about 10 new threads or more a day popping up about Adam Dunn. It's getting real old really fast. At times, it makes me not want to even open up threads here, because even topics that have nothing to do with Adam Dunn tend to have posts in them complaining about Adam Dunn. It's depressing.
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  2. #2
    Who Dey!! GridironGrace's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Adam's head seems to be elsewhere at times in some games this season, otherwise he's just in a slump.

    I dunno, I KNOW he'll be ok and work out of this rut he's in.

    And yes i agree, there is WAY TO MUCH player bashing here, kills me when peeps talk about "so n so shouldnt bat here cause......." or "so n so shoulnt start because........"

    Its great to have an opinion, but we all cheer for the SAME team, to do the SAME thing.. and thats WIN!!!!!!!!!!

    No matter who we field that day, no matter who we Start on the mound, no matter WHO comes in to PH late in a game we all want the SAME result, from whatever player it is. TO WIN!!!!

    I say cheer on that player, lets here WHY he should be batting 4th, or why he should be starting today. I'm sure theres a reason for it all or Narron wouldnt write em in that way
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  3. #3
    Member TeamCasey's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    I've said previously that there's always one player that seems untouchable for discussion. Anytime someone discusses that player, it's like sparking a flint. The player used to be Griffey, now it's Dunn.

    Although I haven't been as deeply involved in all the threads as I have in past years, I do have an observation.

    For every player "basher", there are as many defenders turning these threads into long bitter arguments. Not blaming either side. I have friends on both sides and it makes me a little sad.

    There's no solution that mods or admins can impose other than consolidating threads. It's a discussion board. Folks are going to discuss players on the team. Opinions are going to differ. I wish people would discuss, debate or ignore without the ugliness.

    If you have a negative comment about Dunn, post it constructively. (Leave the "sucks" BS out). If someone comments on Dunn, don't get so sensitive about it. Debate it. If you're tired of the same debate ..... close the thread and walk away. You'll live longer.

    We're all adults, respect goes a long way.

    Leave the ugliness for the cincy.coms.
    Last edited by TeamCasey; 05-22-2006 at 08:16 AM.

  4. #4
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    It is obvious that it has.

    After observing yet another broadside on Dunn over on Live, I can safely say I am done with that portion of the site for awhile, and will back off on this side. WOY, M2, OBM and others make the same reasoned responses, and are ignored or belittled. It gets old.

  5. #5
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal
    It is obvious that it has.

    After observing yet another broadside on Dunn over on Live, I can safely say I am done with that portion of the site for awhile, and will back off on this side. WOY, M2, OBM and others make the same reasoned responses, and are ignored or belittled. It gets old.
    Its a combination of a fast start paced by above-average norms divided by new posters plus a losing streak.

    For you mathematicians - its the "RedsZone May Theorem" where FS is a Fast Start, AAN is above average norms, NP is New Posters, and LS is losing streak.

    (FS+AAN)/(NP+LS)=Whining.
    Last edited by Heath; 05-22-2006 at 09:28 AM.
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  6. #6
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal
    It is obvious that it has.

    After observing yet another broadside on Dunn over on Live, I can safely say I am done with that portion of the site for awhile, and will back off on this side. WOY, M2, OBM and others make the same reasoned responses, and are ignored or belittled. It gets old.
    Then cyclone makes a nice statistical based formula with facts about Dunn and it gets punted by post #4.

    Yikes.
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  7. #7
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    You are no doubt right, there are plenty of good explanations for it, but that doesn't change the fact that the new posters who scream "Dunn sucks" unendingly have begun to affect my enjoyment of the team at the moment. I flinch when he's up, knowing that every out will be magnified 1000 times by anti-Dunn people on here.

    There are precious few who have been realists about this team from the outset, so there are few who are equipped to ride out the ups and downs without starting 10,000,000 Dunn sucks threads or trying to deal him for Chien Wang.

    Long view is needed with baseball. Chat boards are notoriously short on long view. So the bad times are magnified, I know all that.

    It's just that the Dunn stuff has reached such a crescendo, it drowns out everything else.

  8. #8
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    It has grown tiresome. As a whole the board seems to have taken a negative tone. A few wins start to lessen it, but then two losses in a row and everyone on the team sucks, doesn't matter if they were an All-Star, a Hall of Famer, or a backup, everyone of them needs to be jettisoned for the first available warm body.

    This team has problems, from top to bottom. I think every single team in baseball does. I do think they are going to hang near the upper half of the division all season rather than the bottom half, so the constant bashing and calling to trade, bench, or swap positions for every player has to stop, especially when it's all been posted a thousand times already.

    We know Dunn K's a lot, we know FeLo commits some errors, and we know Griffey has lost a step [or three] but talking about it every time one of them comes up to bat isn't going to change it one iota.

    Also, last time I checked, not many of us were bringing in paychecks for our baseball knowledge, so it's not up to us to decide.

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  9. #9
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph
    It has grown tiresome. As a whole the board seems to have taken a negative tone. A few wins start to lessen it, but then two losses in a row and everyone on the team sucks, doesn't matter if they were an All-Star, a Hall of Famer, or a backup, everyone of them needs to be jettisoned for the first available warm body.

    This team has problems, from top to bottom. I think every single team in baseball does. I do think they are going to hang near the upper half of the division all season rather than the bottom half, so the constant bashing and calling to trade, bench, or swap positions for every player has to stop, especially when it's all been posted a thousand times already.

    We know Dunn K's a lot, we know FeLo commits some errors, and we know Griffey has lost a step [or three] but talking about it every time one of them comes up to bat isn't going to change it one iota.

    Also, last time I checked, not many of us were bringing in paychecks for our baseball knowledge, so it's not up to us to decide.
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  10. #10
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
    But Randy, aren't there pictures of you in a Reds Uni somewhere?
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  11. #11
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heath
    But Randy, aren't there pictures of you in a Reds Uni somewhere?
    Yeah, but I payed for that uniform.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
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  12. #12
    Member NJReds's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    I fought the battle w/BF (Prose) for 2 seasons on mlb.com. I don't even bother with the Dunn arguement anymore. He is what he is.

    But there is a negative tone on the board. For example, B. Phillips has a few bad days at the plate and all of the sudden there's a post about him being a "black hole" in the lineup. Even though he leads the team in RBIs. That's more frustrating to me then the Dunn stuff. Dunn is and always will be a lightning rod for discussion.

  13. #13
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds
    I fought the battle w/BF (Prose) for 2 seasons on mlb.com. I don't even bother with the Dunn arguement anymore. He is what he is.

    But there is a negative tone on the board. For example, B. Phillips has a few bad days at the plate and all of the sudden there's a post about him being a "black hole" in the lineup. Even though he leads the team in RBIs. That's more frustrating to me then the Dunn stuff. Dunn is and always will be a lightning rod for discussion.
    After this bad streak, the Reds (this is MAY still, BTW) are leading the wild-card AND Brandon Phillips leads this team in RBI's.

    Wow.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  14. #14
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    For six seasons, six parts of seasons or for six long years the Griffey/Dunn debate has been debated with great passion and re-debated, surely the subject has been covered thoroughly and exhausted within a six year time frame as is being suggested by the previous posters within. Surely the debate results are in by now, the only thing left is for the debate winner, pro or con to be announced and to move on to a new subject. Time has gone by, so who won the debate? I think the anti/con group was right.

  15. #15
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds
    But there is a negative tone on the board. For example, B. Phillips has a few bad days at the plate and all of the sudden there's a post about him being a "black hole" in the lineup. Even though he leads the team in RBIs. That's more frustrating to me then the Dunn stuff. Dunn is and always will be a lightning rod for discussion.
    If Brandon Phillips was a good hitter, there'd be evidence of that in over seven seasons of professional baseball. But I won't get into that here, because there's another thread on that.

    RBI is a product of team OBP of the hitters in front you and your individual slugging percentage. And the last I looked, the team OBP of the hitters in front of you has nothing to do you with your individual hitting accomplishments. It's such a shame that people continually fail to understand the simple fact that when the OBP of the hitters in front of you is ridiculously high, you're likely to drive in a load of runs, even if you're a below average hitter.

    Brandon Phillips has 125 at bats this season, and 42 of them have occurred with runners in scoring position. That's 34 percent of his total at bats, compared to the league average in 2005 of 25 percent of all at bats occurring with runners in scoring position. Brandon Phillips has also had 65 at bats with runners on base, which is 52 percent of his total at bats. League average? Try 43 percent of all at bats.

    So no, I'm not at all surprised that Brandon Phillips leads the team in RBI since the ratio of his at bats with runners on and in scoring position is considerably higher than the league average, a feat that he deserves zero credit for. Stick a bunch of league average OBPs in front of him and his RBI total drops considerably. But when trying to explain that to people, the notion slides in one ear and right out the other. The more chances you have to drive in runs, the more runs you'll drive in. But people continue to overlook that simple fact, and when equating RBI total with good hitting, they're making a flawed analysis.

    I don't know about you, but I sure as heck don't want somebody running my team if that's the type of analysis they consider true and accurate.

    But this isn't about Adam Dunn, nor is it about Brandon Phillips. It's not about any single hitter or group of hitters on the team or in the league.

    No, it's not about any of them. It's about statistics, namely a colossal misunderstanding by several people to comprehend which statistics are vastly more valuable than others. Several people have a fondness for obsessing over inaccurate measures of player performance, especially RBI and BA w/RISP, and have absolutely zero concept about the lack of validity those stats carry. When presented with actual, factual evidence that those specific statistics are very poor indicators of a player's performance, those same people either ignore the evidence or respond in a way that shows that they have absolutely no desire to do anything except spout their own heavily misinformed opinion.

    It is like somebody saying the world is flat and then refusing to believe otherwise, or it's like somebody saying that the sun doesn't exist.

    The result of all this is we constantly see posts such as "I don't care what Bill James or your fancy stats say ... Adam Dunn sucks because he strikes out, has low RBI and can't hit with runners in scoring position."

    Yet it has been proven more times than I can ever count how absolutely wrong those assertions are, because the evidence that backs up those assertions fails miserably when tested a valid test of what constitutes actual run production.

    It's truly baffling and mind-boggling.
    Last edited by Cyclone792; 05-22-2006 at 11:38 AM.
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