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Thread: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

  1. #31
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Baseball isn't played on a computer or in a Bill James book.
    You know smug statements like that are a big part of the problem on this board, especially when no one on that side of the fence ever suggested that that was the case.

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  3. #32
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    This crap is going to make me insane. I really need to stay off these threads dealing with Dunn. Just avoid them altogether.
    Good luck FCB because every thread turns into one, regardless of the title.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

  4. #33
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    You know smug statements like that are a big part of the problem on this board, especially when no one on that side of the fence ever suggested that that was the case.
    Strawmen can always be useful when lacking the ability to make a real argument.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  5. #34
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by guttle11
    See what you did there? You went on and on basically saying "How dare you..." while completely ignoring the fact that I provided you faults.

    I'm not saying Dunn's faults are making him any less of a player, I'm saying they are keeping him from the next "level."

    Adam Dunn is a terrible situational hitter, and a below average fielder and baserunner, and there's no two ways about it. If someone is willing to gloss over that without any thought, then there's no point of discussing baseball with them. Baseball isn't played on a computer or in a Bill James book.

    His stats are impressive, but he's simply not as good as many people make him out to be. He's "bling-bling" and "flossing" material. I see no reason to go all MC Hammer for Adam Dunn. He's just not worth it.
    Go ahead.

    Quantify all this negative value.

    Quantify his "terrible situational hitting."

    Quantify his below average defense. I know he's a below average defensive player, and I know how many runs his defense costs us.

    Quantify his supposed "below average baserunning."

    You're making assertions, and now I want to see the actual evidence to back those assertions up. For all of Dunn's faults that you're asserting he has how many runs is he costing the team because of those faults?

    This is the polar opposite of a "How dare you?" This is an open invitation for you to describe how much negative value Dunn provides the team over the course of a half season, full season, many seasons, etc.

    I'm very curious to see this.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  6. #35
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    . It is an interesting debate.
    But it isn't. One side offers up fact. Another side beholds these facts and proceeds to smother them with a pillow. That's not debate; that's voluntary manslaughter.

  7. #36
    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Go ahead.

    Quantify all this negative value.

    Quantify his "terrible situational hitting."

    Quantify his below average defense. I know he's a below average defensive player, and I know how many runs his defense costs us.

    Quantify his supposed "below average baserunning."

    You're making assertions, and now I want to see the actual evidence to back those assertions up. For all of Dunn's faults that you're asserting he has how many runs is he costing the team because of those faults?

    This is the polar opposite of a "How dare you?" This is an open invitation for you to describe how much negative value Dunn provides the team over the course of a half season, full season, many seasons, etc.

    I'm very curious to see this.
    There's no reason for me to do that. Not once have I argued that Dunn "costs the team" anything. In fact, if you'll look back I said he was a valueable asset to the team. All I have ever said was that a lot of people are overstating his ability as an individual player. He's good, but not great.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    You know smug statements like that are a big part of the problem on this board, especially when no one on that side of the fence ever suggested that that was the case.
    The entire premise of this thread is very smug.
    "I saw Wedding Crashers accidentally. I bought a ticket for Grizzly Man and went into the wrong theater. After an hour, I figured I was in the wrong theater, but I kept waiting. Thatís the thing about bear attacks. They come when you least expect it."-Dwight K. Schrute

  8. #37
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    The entire premise of this thread is very smug.
    By all means bring more gasoline to the fire then.

  9. #38
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by guttle11
    There's no reason for me to do that. Not once have I argued that Dunn "costs the team" anything. In fact, if you'll look back I said he was a valueable asset to the team. All I have ever said was that a lot of people are overstating his ability as an individual player. He's good, but not great.
    Oh yes there is very much a reason for you to do that. Let's review your statement exactly:

    I'm not saying Dunn's faults are making him any less of a player, I'm saying they are keeping him from the next "level."
    If Dunn's faults are keeping him from the next "level" as you're stating, then his faults are providing us with negative value, which costs the team runs, wins, and like you state, keep Dunn from the next "level."

    Quantify this negative value for me that you claim keeps Dunn from the next level. If Dunn is not costing us anything due to his faults, then he is already at the next level.

    So again, how many runs is he costing us?
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  10. #39
    Member smith288's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    To Guttle11 defense, this board is filled to the brim with statheads with whom you offer an opinion that directly counters their opinion, the stat head will barrage said traditionalist with stats, questions, requests of proof from you to back up your opinion and a dash of sarcasm.

    The who idea of a stathead requiring a traditionalist to have stats to back up their gut instinct is like asking a polar bear why he chose the penguin instead of the seal at any particular time.

  11. #40
    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792
    Oh yes there is very much a reason for you to do that. Let's review your statement exactly:



    If Dunn's faults are keeping him from the next "level" as you're stating, then his faults are providing us with negative value, which costs the team runs, wins, and like you state, keep Dunn from the next "level."

    Quantify this negative value for me that you claim keeps Dunn from the next level. If Dunn is not costing us anything due to his faults, then he is already at the next level.

    So again, how many runs is he costing us?
    Twisting arguements 101. I hear you're a good teacher.

    Again, not once did I say he costs the team anything. Saying that would imply that he's not a good player or not valuable, two things I've never said. If he improved on his faults, he could provide the team more.

    There is a difference.
    "I saw Wedding Crashers accidentally. I bought a ticket for Grizzly Man and went into the wrong theater. After an hour, I figured I was in the wrong theater, but I kept waiting. Thatís the thing about bear attacks. They come when you least expect it."-Dwight K. Schrute

  12. #41
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by smith288
    The who idea of a stathead requiring a traditionalist to have stats to back up their gut instinct is like asking a polar bear why he chose the penguin instead of the seal at any particular time.
    Well, the problem with the "traditionalist" position*, then, is that you can just make crap up out of whole cloth with no objective backing for it whatsoever.

    I don't really have a problem with that, but if that's your rhetorical style, be prepared to be taken to the woodshed from time to time by people who can back up contrary positions with facts.

    One thing that new posters may want to remember is that a lot of the 'veterans' on this board have been here for years and have heard these arguments dozens of times. It doesn't make it right, but I think people can understand why they get snippy after a while.

    (*--I think this "traditionalist"/"stathead" split is pretty useless too, given that most people here lie somewhere in the middle.)
    Last edited by dsmith421; 05-22-2006 at 01:06 PM.

  13. #42
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    I don't think that Adam Dunn has reached the level of Willie Mays or Hank Aaron, but I'm not going to spend hours researching stats to support that assertion. Just my own opinion, worth no more or less than the average fan--or anyone else on this board.

    I do think the complaints are legitimate for both sides of this argument--for both people who bury themselves in statistics, and those who do not (and those, like myself, who reside somewhere in the middle.)
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  14. #43
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Well, the problem with the "traditionalist" position*, then, is that you can just make crap up out of whole cloth with no objective backing for it whatsoever.
    How come the "traditionalists" tend to be the ones who fail to recognize that baseball is a game of disappointments? It's a game of failure and more of the same, day in and day out. No one doesn't get scored against, no one wins them all and no one drives them all in. Yet time and time again the only aspect of the game examined is the failure and not the success.

  15. #44
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by smith288
    To Guttle11 defense, this board is filled to the brim with statheads with whom you offer an opinion that directly counters their opinion, the stat head will barrage said traditionalist with stats, questions, requests of proof from you to back up your opinion and a dash of sarcasm.

    The who idea of a stathead requiring a traditionalist to have stats to back up their gut instinct is like asking a polar bear why he chose the penguin instead of the seal at any particular time.
    If guttle, or anyone else here for that matter, is able to provide some serious quantifiable analysis on Dunn's negative value, I for one would love to see it. Not to pick it apart, but to try to learn anything I possibly can from it.

    Make me think, make me reconsider. Find the flaws, course correct and then get an even better understanding of the negative value. Want to talk about situational hitting? Fine, let's figure out how important situational hitting is in the overall picture so we have a better understanding the positive or negative value a player's situation hitting provides.

    There's a half dozen fielding systems abound and freely available. Nobody uses them when bashing Dunn's defense. In fact, the only time they're used is to defend Dunn against irrational arguments claiming he costs the team an impossibly absurd amount of runs.

    And baserunning? There's studies out there on baserunning. Why none of them ever appear in a post bashing Dunn's baserunning is a curious wonder.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  16. #45
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Has Adam Dunn's performance been beaten to death yet?

    M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
    A: I told you once.
    M: No you haven't.
    A: Yes I have.
    M: When?
    A: Just now.
    M: No you didn't.
    A: Yes I did.
    M: You didn't
    A: I did!
    M: You didn't!
    A: I'm telling you I did!
    M: You did not!!
    A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
    M: Oh, just the five minutes.
    A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
    M: You most certainly did not.
    A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
    M: No you did not.
    A: Yes I did.
    M: No you didn't.
    A: Yes I did.
    M: No you didn't.
    A: Yes I did.
    M: No you didn't.
    A: Yes I did.
    M: You didn't.
    A: Did.
    M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
    A: Yes it is.
    M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: It is!
    A: It is not.
    M: Look, you just contradicted me.
    A: I did not.
    M: Oh you did!!
    A: No, no, no.
    M: You did just then.
    A: Nonsense!
    M: Oh, this is futile!
    A: No it isn't.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

    A: Yes it is!
    M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
    (short pause)
    A: No it isn't.
    M: It is.
    A: Not at all.
    M: Now look.
    A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
    M: What?
    A: That's it. Good morning.
    M: I was just getting interested.
    A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
    M: That was never five minutes!
    A: I'm afraid it was.
    M: It wasn't.
    Pause
    A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
    M: What?!
    A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
    M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
    A: (Hums)
    M: Look, this is ridiculous.
    A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
    M: Oh, all right.
    (pays money)
    A: Thank you.
    short pause
    M: Well?
    A: Well what?
    M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
    A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
    M: I just paid!
    A: No you didn't.
    M: I DID!
    A: No you didn't.
    M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
    A: Well, you didn't pay.
    M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
    A: No you haven't.
    M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
    A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
    M: Oh I've had enough of this.
    A: No you haven't.
    M: Oh Shut up.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!


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