Turn Off Ads?
Page 29 of 29 FirstFirst ... 192526272829
Results 421 to 433 of 433

Thread: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

  1. #421
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    27,946

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    What mindset is that, M2?
    I thought I made this clear the first time, but maybe not. It's the notion that AnonymousPosters #1-5 are "them" and something needs to be done about "them."

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    If you consider that behavior petty, shallow or whatever else, once again, your perogative. But it's our perogative to feel like the menality on this board with some posters also happens to be petty, shallow and unpleasant, and that's why some people have decided to voice their displeasure.
    No, they've decided to hold a gripe session behind other people's backs and you've decided that has some sort of place in the public forum. BTW, your use of "our" is speaking volumes to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Isn't this question (whether rhetorical or otherwise) basically like the pot calling the kettle black? Here we have a thread of over 400 responses of people voicing concerns and ideas for the forum and because some people may want a better, more comfortable environment they have alterior motives?
    I don't have a problem with people individually voicing their concerns on the public forum. Yet, and your PM list underlines this, for many this revolves around trying to wage a campaign against "them."

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.
    Consider that Redszone is a massive baseball forum that's been doing just that for six years. Are people going to disagree? You bet. Will those disagreements sometimes get terse? You bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Just because these people don't have 20,000 posts don't mean they aren't here for baseball discussion. Just because they're looking for a little more consistency and respect doesn't make them disciples for justice or give any right to question their motives.
    The secret to a a large post count, at least in my case, is that you've got to be able to type fast. Meanwhile Cyclone doesn't have a high post count, yet owns one of the highest rep scores on the board. Why? Because Cyclone has made a number of brilliant posts and put together the Redszone HOF threads this winter (which was a fantastic offseason idea). It seems you're the one judging people (negatively) based on post counts and rep scores, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    This is exactly the problem. The moderators and administrators tell people to take their issues private.
    Because people should take their individual issues private. It has no place on the public board. From experience I can tell you taking it private works out extremely well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    They do so and essentially, to no avail. So they share concerns with other people facing the same problems - and that's "petty and shallow" behavior.
    Read what you re-posted again. That's not people sharing their concerns. That's people griping about other people and there's not all that fine a distinction between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    It's proving everything that's being complained about - for speaking out against the way they are treated, they get branded, labeled and criticized.
    Labeled and branded? You mean like "not having a life?" I've seen a fair amount of labeling and branding here, but it's not coming from the folks you're trying to turn into "them."

    I don't doubt that people's takes have been criticized ... and welcome to Redszone. Though I sincerely doubt they're giving any better treatment than they're getting. You mentioned that you had a -65 rep score at one point and that it was one post that earned it for you. Rep can work for or against anyone on this board and I think it's fair to say that you have first-hand experience as to how the rep system can respond to a particularly egregious post. When dozens of people with no common agenda neg something, it sends a clear message people don't like what that poster has written.

    I think the community policing works for the most part. The community has been given the tools to call out what it considers inappropriate behavior and, clearly, it has used them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Funny thing is, there are probably several people that probably aren't speaking out right now for fear of exactly what I'm responding to right now. They know what kind of backlash they would get for it.
    Yes, retribution will be swift and severe. Dude, it's a baseball board.
    Last edited by M2; 06-03-2006 at 02:21 AM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #422
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Northern Ky
    Posts
    440

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    mlb.com
    Steel, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and feel that you bring a lot to the board but I am surprised by this. If I understand you correctly you are saying that Redszone is not a place to discuss baseball if you have a different viewpoint because you could be criticized and talked down too. I know that some think there isn't a problem here but wouldn't this be the main problem people are complaining about. I don't feel that anyone should be criticized or talked down to for their opinions about baseball. If someone has a different view of things then that is their perogative and I don't think Boss ever intended for people to all have the same ideas on this site and I'm sure he never wanted people to be criticized or talked down to if they did.

  4. #423
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    27,946

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Here's something interesting,

    SteelSD just negative repped me 8 points
    And I'm about to neg you as well for bringing up individual rep votes on the public forum. That sort of thing has no place here. It's done under the covers for a reason.

    And if you need to argue with Steel on a more personal level, I suggest you take it the private route because, just speaking for myself, I don't want to read a single word of it.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  5. #424
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,304

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    And pray tell, may I ask, which board rules had been violated?
    The first rule of personal rep points is that you do not talk about personal rep points. The second rule of personal rep points is that you do not talk about personal rep points. The third rule of personal rep points is that you don't, in any situation, POST rep point comments. This is clear to anyone who's actually read a thread about rep points.

    I don't have carte blance to say or do whatever I like. That is the standard and it is very clear to me. If you fail to meet the standard, then you can expect adversity.

    I didn't call anyone out. I didn't attack anyone. You tell me what forum rules were broken?
    Other than calling folks out, attacking posters, posting private messages, andf posting rep point messages, you've done nothing wrong.

    In fact, you gave me a negative rep BECAUSE I followed the orders of the forum administrator and didn't call anyone out. What does that say about your own credibility?
    My credibility is quite fine. First, I've never posted private communications on the board (folks have been banned for that). Secondly, I don't give half a crap about my rep point total. And third, you didn't follow the "orders" of a forum administrator. You turned this thead into your own personal vendetta.

    And unlike some people, I'm trying to come up with solutions, not just responding with, "the only one doing that is you."
    Your next proposed solution will be your first. Currently all you're doing is complaining about rep points and telling folks that they need to leave you alone regardless of how many unsubstantiated opinions you post.

    You have the right to an opinion. You do not have the right to an unopposed opinion. That's not a Redszone thing- that's a life thing. If you care about rep points (and obviously you do) then type good posts that say smart things.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  6. #425
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Mt. Vernon, Ohio
    Posts
    447

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    LOL you never cease to amaze me.

    First, I didn't attack anyone. Check your facts man. I didn't name any names in my posts until you repped me. Not a single one. I also didn't share the identities of anyone named in those private posts nor did I say who they were from. In that regard, I was not aware even that was "against forum policy" nor did I know you were not allowed to share "rep points."

    Secondly, I could care less about rep points. With all due respect, I've been here over five years now and have 447 posts. How is it then that I care about reputation? That's a really bizarre assertion there. If I cared about posts, if i cared about rep, I would have more than 500 posts. In fact, if I really cared, taking up issues with people like you would not be about how I'd go about getting rep points - instead I'd just suck it up and suck up to you and others and whatever.

    I proposed a couple of solutions in my post, which apparently you failed to read or you picked out what you wanted to.

    If I wanted to turn this into my own personal vendetta, wouldn't I have just come out and named the people I have a problem with? Really now, I'm trying to eliminate the conduct such as you're showing right now from this board, not make a list and tell everyone "this is who I have a problem with."

    And about having an opinion vs. an unopposed opinion...

    again you have failed to understand the issue. No one is looking for an opinion that isn't opposed, it's how you oppose that opinion that is the problem. People are sick of being talked down to for their beliefs. If the response to my post isn't living proof of that, there isn't anything that can be done.

    I was trying to avoid personal attacks in this thread and voicing concerns at the same time. Then all of the sudden, someone comes out of the woodwork and gives me a negative rep because I didn't name names - as was asked in the first post.

    Once again, it's hypocritical that you accuse me of breaking forum rules, but until you repped me, I had not mentioned anyone by name at all. So which is it, did you want me to call you by name as you suggested in your rep, or did you want me to follow forum rules? You're trying to have it both ways.
    "If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, why do they even keep score?"

  7. #426
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    27,946

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    So much for not wanting to see a word of it. Seriously. TAKE IT PRIVATE!
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  8. #427
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,304

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Sanchez
    Steel, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and feel that you bring a lot to the board but I am surprised by this. If I understand you correctly you are saying that Redszone is not a place to discuss baseball if you have a different viewpoint because you could be criticized and talked down too. I know that some think there isn't a problem here but wouldn't this be the main problem people are complaining about. I don't feel that anyone should be criticized or talked down to for their opinions about baseball. If someone has a different view of things then that is their perogative and I don't think Boss ever intended for people to all have the same ideas on this site and I'm sure he never wanted people to be criticized or talked down to if they did.
    Shaggy, I think you're right on as far as what Redszone is for. In fact, if someone posts a view that displays solid reasoning (even if it's "subjective" or "observational"), then that person is taken seriously. Of course folks are going to attempt to confirm said observation, but there isn't a person on the board who can't alter their opinion based on valid information.

    That being said, Redszone isn't a place where unsupported opinion will work regardless of the derivation. Logically supported opinion will always be valued whether it's statistical in nature or observational in nature. But if it's observational and can be confirmed (as most all observational info can) then it's more valid.

    This is a mature, intelligent baseball board. I know that I don't need to tell you that, but that's the fact of the matter. Folks at Redszone like valid information. That doesn't mean "only stats" but it sure includes statistical analysis when relevant. Redszone, for quite some time IMHO, has been short on patience for opinions that can't be logically supported. Again, that doesn't mean "statistically supported" but at some point we reach a flashpoint of fact versus opinion and what I'm seeing a lot of is folks want facts to take a back seat. But that's never going to fly because this is a mature, intelligent baseball board.

    The crux of the matter is that you either want to belong and contribute to a mature, intelligent baseball board or you don't. If not, there are plenty of other boards that'll cater to whatever a poster is looking for. And if a poster doesn't see a fit here, then it's up to them to determine if they want to look elsewhere for their message board enjoyment rather than continuning to try to change an established community to fit them. Fact is that no one here has ever been able to make Redszone their own personal board that does nothing but cater to what they want to post. The community won't allow it and rightly so.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  9. #428
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,815

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog
    Ummm.....Ron that would be an opinion, would it not? The very existence of this thread says that there is a need of repair here.

    Rem
    Good call Rem,

    Yes it is an opinion, it's my opinion.

    I know not everyone will agree with me but that's OK.

  10. #429
    So Long Uncle Joe BoydsOfSummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Hamilton,Ohio
    Posts
    3,850

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Cracks me up when guys like Steel and Falls say things like "Dude" and make "doodie" references. Kinna makes me feel like I belong and stuff.
    0 Value Over Replacement Poster


    "Sit over here next to Johnathan (Bench)...sit right here, he's smart."--Sparky Anderson

  11. #430
    Resident optimist OldRightHander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    east of WOY
    Posts
    5,042

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan
    Not when I give 'em out and then I find another great post I'd like to award, but have to wait 24 hours and then 24 hours later I can't find that post again. Maybe that's just me.
    That happens to me all the time. I sometimes will remember the person who made the post but can't find the post, so I will end up giving that person rep on a different post with a note something like, "You said something really good yesterday, so this is for that post." I feel kind of silly doing that.

  12. #431
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    16,601

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    That will be news to RFS62

    Personally I think you are selling these guys TERRIBLY short by lumping them all together as simply "stat guys".


    GL

    Great. 6 years of deep undercover work infiltrating the Evil Stat Cabal of RZ blown out of the water. I had the charges set in the Hal 9000 and was ready to make my move.


    After slogging through this little epic I've come to the conclusion that the intentions of many of the folks who are upset are probably valid, in that they're not just troublemakers, but people who want to have their voices heard. But the execution of those good intentions is causing some consternation.

    Personally, I doubt that anyone with a high rep count could give a crap if the rep points disappeared tomorrow. I know I feel that way. It's nice to have people you like and respect say nice things about you, but that's not why I'm here.

    Like everyone else who has found this site, I'm here for baseball talk. Funny thing happened though, I made a lot of friends and acquaintences along the way. I never expected that. It's been a nice surprise.

    It's a baseball board. It's not life and death. I had a hard time accepting that myself, and once that basic truth became clear to me, I stopped worrying about opinions that I don't share.

    I take everything I read here with a grain of salt, and my own views on things have modified greatly over the years. None of us knows it all. We're all searching for the truth.

    Regarding what seems to be the never ending battle here of "statheads" vs. "traditionalists" (and I hate the negative connotations that both terms have taken on), we're all going to have to come to grips with the fact that this discussion isn't going to go away. There will be a never ending supply of new posters who haven't been exposed to the massive volumes of work done on this subject here, and they'll go through all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes along with the turf.

    So, we're faced with a problem. Many of the old timers are running short on patience. That's understandable. Many of the newcomers see that as arrogance and condescension. And many times, that's exactly what it is. We have to be fair. There's good and bad behavior on all sides of this issue.

    Speaking of post counts, my 10,000th post pretty much summed up my experience here at RedsZone. It took me 10,000 posts and 5 years to finally put into words how I felt and what I believe. Here it is again, in case anyone can get something out of it that helps them in their journey.



    Evolution
    ev·o·lu·tion n.

    A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form

    Numbers have a special relationship in baseball. No other sport has such a long history of celebrating the numeric benchmarks that have been passed down from generation to generation. The .300 hitter…. the 100 RBI guy… 30 homers. They were standards with which we all agreed. It was how we defined excellence. They gave us perspective, a way to judge players from one era to another.

    But there was always an uneasy feeling among “baseball men” that there was more to player evaluation than simple numbers could ever reflect. Subjective judgment was still more important, in spite of the variety of opinions you could get among talent evaluators. People who spent a lifetime in baseball used statistics as a side dish, but not as the main course. How could a number ever express the beauty of Mazerowski turning a double play? What equation could describe the jump Mays got on the ball off the bat?

    We were right when we argued that statistics didn’t tell the whole story. We were right when we gave more weight to scouting methods steeped in subjective judgment.

    The reason we were right wasn’t that statistics is an imperfect science. The reason was that the particular statistics that we grew up with were inadequate in expressing what was going on. So, we very often drew the conclusion that stats are incomplete, and we were right.

    But baseball, for all it’s tradition and history, does not exist in a static environment. It’s dynamic, ever changing, evolving. And a big part of that evolution in the past 30 years comes from a group of dedicated baseball lovers who were also mathematicians. These were people who, like the “baseball men” of the day, saw the current statistical measures we used were inadequate. But they didn’t stop there, as we did. They looked for better ways to express performance through mathematics.

    And they came up with some surprising conclusions. Things that were counterintuitive to the traditional baseball world. Much of this “new thinking” came in the form of complex equations, far beyond the simple formulas used for batting average, ERA, and the counting stats that had been used as benchmarks ever since Harry Chadwick conjured up the first box scores.

    The community of mathematicians saw the value immediately. This was their turf, and it wasn’t even that complicated, relative to the kind of things they were doing in other fields. But it was voodoo to most baseball men. An egregious transgression, perpetrated by a bunch of people who “never played the game”.

    And as the movement grew, the divide between the “baseball men” and the “statheads” grew ever wider. It became a turf war. And it got ugly.

    The “statheads” ridiculed “traditionalists” like it was a dirty word. Moneyball portrayed scouts as tobacco chewing Neanderthals, simpletons, incapable of seeing the big picture. And traditionalists loved to tell stat guys to get their nose out of their spreadsheet and actually watch a game. It was personal, demeaning, and very emotional on both sides.

    I was one of the guys who laughed out loud when I first heard some of the conclusions coming out of the sabermetric movement. Before I even scratched the surface of trying to understand what they were doing, I lumped the “new math” of baseball into the same category as the old stats, the ones that I and all of my friends KNEW were incomplete in describing the big picture.

    And I was right, from my perspective. But my perspective was skewed. It was incomplete. So, even though I was convinced from all my years of playing and coaching and studying the game I loved that I was right, I wasn’t. In the grand scheme of things, I was wrong.

    The craziest thing about all of this is that both sides come from a noble place. Both sides are seeking the truth about baseball. Both sides want the same thing.

    I’ve been studying and debating and really agonizing over all this for the past 4 years. And I’ve bought in completely.

    And I’m glad that I didn’t come to these conclusions easily. I’m glad that I resisted, kicking and screaming all the way. I’m glad that I demanded proof, and challenged it at every turn.

    But to me “buying in” doesn’t mean that I have to abandon what I know and have learned from a lifetime of observation. I’ve said over and over that a “balance” between statistical analysis and subjective judgment from observation is the optimum approach. I now believe this more than ever. There has to be a blend with which the two disciplines can co-exist.

    In my opinion, the perfectly evolved baseball mind doesn’t exist on either extreme of the spectrum. It’s somewhere in the middle, depending on your background and experience. You don’t forget how to crawl when you learn how to walk. You just find a better way of moving. I submit that both extremes have to give up old attachments and open our minds, and learn a better way of thinking about the game we love.

    I would love to see the fighting stop between the so-called “traditionalists” and the so-called “statheads”. It’s gone on for too long. The personal attacks, the condescension, it’s all so counterproductive. It’s a turf war that serves no useful purpose.

    I don’t mean to stop the discussions. I don’t want the challenges to every new and old idea to stop. That’s how we evolve, we test our theories against one another, and we seek the truth. But the personal rancor and invectives are childish and ridiculous, demeaning to all involved.

    We all seek the truth about the game we love. What could be more noble?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  13. #432
    Member Reds4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    3,926

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Once again, this thread has come full circle. We have posters being called out, discussion of rep points, etc. The discussion itself seems to be complete now, with many ideas simply being rehashed (and turning into fights).

    I want to thank those of you that have chosen to follow the rules and discuss this subject in the spirit in which it was intended. You have given the staff some very good ideas for proceeding forward.
    Pessimists are well informed optimists

  14. #433
    Administrator Boss-Hog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,064

    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    As Reds4Life said, I really appreciate those who offered their input while still following the rules I laid out in the initial post. It's a shame everyone couldn't do that.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25