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Thread: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

  1. #406
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Private Message means exactly that - private. PMs have no business being re-posted onto the public forum.

    FWIW, there's a long, ugly history on this board of people "recruiting." if you will, on the back channels, attempting to create an us vs. them dynamic. Sometimes a "recruit" will forward along that kind of PM, not having thought much of it. Can't say I've ever held a high opinion of the folks who do it.

    Though I think a lot of the frustration we're hearing has to do with their relative lack of success in taking that agenda to the public forums. In fact, I think it's a testament to how well the system is working that such things have stayed confined largely to PMs.
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  3. #407
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Though I think a lot of the frustration we're hearing has to do with their relative lack of success in taking that agenda to the public forums. In fact, I think it's a testament to how well the system is working that such things have stayed confined largely to PMs.
    And thus, that's where there's a large philisophical difference, because many people see the problem as the failure to crack down on a problematic issue that has plagued many people. The fact that people are trying to keep these issues off the board as has been asked and yet they're still not being addressed has people frustrated, hence the private venting.

    You are free to have a distaste for those that share the PM's publicly, but there very fact they haven't been answered or dealt with is the very reason that they're being used.

    Again, I kept their identities out of this discussion because if they want to go on record, they will. I think that should have sufficed. But since this thread was to ask for concerns and problems with the board, I feel this is the time to use them as they are relavant to the discussion.
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  4. #408
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    And thus, that's where there's a large philisophical difference, because many people see the problem as the failure to crack down on a problematic issue that has plagued many people. The fact that people are trying to keep these issues off the board as has been asked and yet they're still not being addressed has people frustrated, hence the private venting.

    You are free to have a distaste for those that share the PM's publicly, but there very fact they haven't been answered or dealt with is the very reason that they're being used.

    Again, I kept their identities out of this discussion because if they want to go on record, they will. I think that should have sufficed. But since this thread was to ask for concerns and problems with the board, I feel this is the time to use them as they are relavant to the discussion.
    Beyond having a personal distaste for PMs being made public, it's been the long-standing policy on this board that such practice is verboten. Maybe that's being waved for this thread, but I do know it's been viewed dimly over the years.

    I have a little more history with the "private venting" than you. Once upon a time I was "recruited" too. If people want to "vent" about how they don't like X, Y and Z in PMs, that's they're prerogative. Just like it's mine to consider that immensely petty, shallow behavior.

    As far as I'm concerned, there is no "them" on this board. Clearly the people with whom you're commisserating hold a different view. Personally, I don't want to make the board "safe" for that mindset.
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  5. #409
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Couldn't this "fight for Justice" be put to better use in, say, a real-world cause and not a baseball forum?

    Seems that if your mission in coming here is to make a "fairer world for all" and not engage in challenging baseball discussions, then you're probably here in the wrong spirit of things.

  6. #410
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by saboforthird
    Thanks for summarizing what took me a page-long effort to do. There are a lot of folks here who could easily strike newcomers as "not having a life". When discussions turn to "you're not posting facts, therefore your opinion doesn't count", it's no longer a "community".
    First of all the reputation system does lead to class warfare. Unfortunate but that's the way it works.

    The discussions of "you're not posting facts" comes from the folks who are addicted to stats...such as "don't tell me Adam Dunn is a bad fielder unless you can show me a stat of how many runs his fielding costs the team."

    My advice: move on and don't post in that thread anymore.

  7. #411
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Buck, I have to say I enjoyed that post. I have encountered many instances you refer to and have pretty much given up dealing in statistic related arguments since many posters here (and elsewhere in the game) seem to be enamored with all of these crazy stats. I am sure that, if you try hard enough, a lot of useless players in the league could be painted in a positive manner using some statistic.

    For example, I think I have been one of the biggest voices against Hatteberg on this board throughout the season. I have gotten into long-winded arguments about how he doesn't being much to the table. But time and time again, his OBP has been used in arguments against me like he won 5 consecutive MVP awards the past 5 years. In addition, I have argued that LaRue was given a ridiculous contract given the status of this team and that he needs to take a seat more often or, better yet, traded. I've been told time and time again that he is a slow starter and he has been one of the best catchers in the league the past few years. We just have to wait it out. He's better than anything we have, and numerous different stats were thrown at me to prove their point. And I respect that...to a point.

    I am a pretty new poster on this board and most of the arguments against my logic came from ORG members. I have no problem with arguing different points of view. That is one reason why I love this website. But lately I have seen something which intrigued me. When the game threads were moved to ORG and out of Reds Live, I have seen many posts made by other ORG members ripping apart LaRue and Hatteberg. And I have seen no arguments going back to them talking about Hatteberg's OBP or how LaRue is a 2nd half player.

    Now there could be 3 reasons for this:
    1) Maybe those posters have seen enough of the two players and changed their minds.
    2) Maybe those posters give ORG members' opinions more respect than newer posters.
    3) Maybe those posters didn't see the anti LaRue and Hatte posts.

    I really hope the first option is what is happening, b/c the second one would really suck if that was the logic being used.

    I realize that LaRue should get better as his career statistical patterns suggest, but stats are not all knowing and neither are historical norms for players, especially when dealing with catchers entering their 30s and in the steroid era. And BTW, I am in no way linking anyone's names to the steroid controversy in this post. But I think Seattle will be waiting a long time for Beltre to hit 48 HRs again. Sometimes the stats have to be thrown in the garbage and opinions have to be formed through other methods.

    Now, did you know that over the last 3 years (2003-2005) there is a right handed member of the bullpen who holds lefties to a .759 OPS over 350 ABs? Not a great statistic, but not an awful statistic either. Or that this same reliever, on no days rest over that same time frame (in 38 games), has a 2.42 ERA? Those are Rick White's stats from the past 3 years.

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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    What mindset is that, M2?

    If you consider that behavior petty, shallow or whatever else, once again, your perogative. But it's our perogative to feel like the menality on this board with some posters also happens to be petty, shallow and unpleasant, and that's why some people have decided to voice their displeasure.

    Couldn't this "fight for Justice" be put to better use in, say, a real-world cause and not a baseball forum?

    Seems that if your mission in coming here is to make a "fairer world for all" and not engage in challenging baseball discussions, then you're probably here in the wrong spirit of things.
    Isn't this question (whether rhetorical or otherwise) basically like the pot calling the kettle black? Here we have a thread of over 400 responses of people voicing concerns and ideas for the forum and because some people may want a better, more comfortable environment they have alterior motives?

    Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.

    Just because these people don't have 20,000 posts don't mean they aren't here for baseball discussion. Just because they're looking for a little more consistency and respect doesn't make them disciples for justice or give any right to question their motives.

    This is exactly the problem. The moderators and administrators tell people to take their issues private.

    They do so and essentially, to no avail. So they share concerns with other people facing the same problems - and that's "petty and shallow" behavior.

    They respond in a thread where administrators ask for input, and now they have alterior motives.

    It's proving everything that's being complained about - for speaking out against the way they are treated, they get branded, labeled and criticized.

    Funny thing is, there are probably several people that probably aren't speaking out right now for fear of exactly what I'm responding to right now. They know what kind of backlash they would get for it.

    This thread was designed to ask people what could be done to change the atmosphere of the board and Boss wanted input. That's what's being given and if people disagree with it, that's more than fine.
    "If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, why do they even keep score?"

  9. #413
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44

    Now there could be 3 reasons for this:
    1) Maybe those posters have seen enough of the two players and changed their minds.
    2) Maybe those posters give ORG members' opinions more respect than newer posters.
    3) Maybe those posters didn't see the anti LaRue and Hatte posts.
    Or maybe people are just "playing nice" for a while and not jumping on people in game threads so that the board doesn't implode.

  10. #414
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Or maybe people are just "playing nice" for a while and not jumping on people in game threads so that the board doesn't implode.
    Not sure about that, but it could be.

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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Here's something interesting,

    SteelSD just negative repped me 8 points and said, "if you want to call me out, then you better put my name by those quotes. That's trash behavior from you."

    I have not called anyone out by name as requested by Boss. I have been fair, I have not pointed fingers and I have given my rationale in a mild manner.

    And Steel responds by giving me a negative reputation. Now THAT is the kind of thing that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

    Anyone care to justify this behavior? This is the exact reason the rep system is flawed and this is exactly why some people have created issues on this forum to begin with.

    I was not bringing anyone into this discussion and there was no reason for him to sink to that level.

    Thread Date Posted By Comment

    Let's all take a deep... 06-03-2006 04:57 AM SteelSD You want to call me out, then you'd better put my name by those quotes. Trash behavior from you.
    "If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, why do they even keep score?"

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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44
    Not sure about that, but it could be.
    I don't know either. But I spend my time on here thinking about the game, not a whole lot else.

    This is my escape, not my work--I'm not a member of any alliance; I've pissed off way more than my fair share of "the elite," as many of you would have it; I don't get invited to the office parties; I'm no one's "buddy"--yet somehow, some way, I have a pretty high rep count. Now why is that? Most of that is because I post here a bunch and I've been here a long time. The remainder of it comes from the fact that I think about the game, learn from others, refine my positions, make idiotic predictions...so it goes. Just be who the hell you are and think about the game. All the other crap will take care of itself.

  13. #417
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    Here's something interesting,

    SteelSD just negative repped me 8 points and said, "if you want to call me out, then you better put my name by those quotes. That's trash behavior from you."

    I have not called anyone out by name as requested by Boss. I have been fair, I have not pointed fingers and I have given my rationale in a mild manner.

    And Steel responds by giving me a negative reputation. Now THAT is the kind of thing that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

    Anyone care to justify this behavior? This is the exact reason the rep system is flawed and this is exactly why some people have created issues on this forum to begin with.

    I was not bringing anyone into this discussion and there was no reason for him to sink to that level.

    And I got negged for suggesting that your original post may not have been appropriate. So what? That crap should stay private IMO.
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro
    And I got negged for suggesting that your original post may not have been appropriate. So what? That crap should stay private IMO.
    Since this thread has been a lot about repping and the abuses or advantages/disadvantages of the system itself, I would say in this particular case it was quite appropriate. I'm not crazy about the fact you got negged for that, but still that's more to the point of what I'm talking about... it shouldn't be a popularity contest.

    This is the one case I decided to expose the negative rep because I want everyone to know exactly why there is an issue and it needs to be dealt with.

    The unfortunate thing is, it's not just that type of response in the private realm that gets to people. It's that posts just like that are overlooked on the public forum. Sometimes it's more thinly-veiled, sometimes it's subtle but often it's there.
    "If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, why do they even keep score?"

  15. #419
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaholic
    What mindset is that, M2?

    If you consider that behavior petty, shallow or whatever else, once again, your perogative. But it's our perogative to feel like the menality on this board with some posters also happens to be petty, shallow and unpleasant, and that's why some people have decided to voice their displeasure.
    You mean like posting PM's and calling out other posters you disagree with?

    Isn't this question (whether rhetorical or otherwise) basically like the pot calling the kettle black? Here we have a thread of over 400 responses of people voicing concerns and ideas for the forum and because some people may want a better, more comfortable environment they have alterior motives?
    400 responses and still not one entirely valid concern or solution. That's producive.

    Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.
    mlb.com

    And, BTW, if you demand respect then you better give it.

    Just because these people don't have 20,000 posts don't mean they aren't here for baseball discussion. Just because they're looking for a little more consistency and respect doesn't make them disciples for justice or give any right to question their motives.
    Nothing about Redszone is inconsistent and there isn't anyone on the board who doesn't get respect when earned.

    This is exactly the problem. The moderators and administrators tell people to take their issues private.
    Again, mlb.com.

    They do so and essentially, to no avail. So they share concerns with other people facing the same problems - and that's "petty and shallow" behavior.
    Yeah, it is because no one on the list you posted has ever engaged in the behavior to which you appear to be familiar.

    They respond in a thread where administrators ask for input, and now they have alterior motives.

    It's proving everything that's being complained about - for speaking out against the way they are treated, they get branded, labeled and criticized.
    Seems to me the only person who's been "branding", "labelling", and "criticizing" has been you.

    Funny thing is, there are probably several people that probably aren't speaking out right now for fear of exactly what I'm responding to right now. They know what kind of backlash they would get for it.
    If you do what you just did, they should expect a backlash as should you for breaking any number of board rules. It's absolutely inexcusable to post rep post messages or to call posters out. That lesson was learned by myself a long long time ago (and the first half didn't have to be learned because it's obvious). It appears you don't think the rules apply to you. That's false.

    This thread was designed to ask people what could be done to change the atmosphere of the board and Boss wanted input. That's what's being given and if people disagree with it, that's more than fine.
    You're not suggesting viable alternatives. You're just complaining and pointing fingers. It's pretty clear that this thread isn't for that.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  16. #420
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    And pray tell, may I ask, which board rules had been violated?

    I didn't call anyone out. I didn't attack anyone. You tell me what forum rules were broken?

    In fact, you gave me a negative rep BECAUSE I followed the orders of the forum administrator and didn't call anyone out. What does that say about your own credibility?

    And unlike some people, I'm trying to come up with solutions, not just responding with, "the only one doing that is you."
    "If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, why do they even keep score?"


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