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Thread: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

  1. #196
    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by saboforthird
    And, I bet $1,000,000 I know who that poster was. Doesn't matter, but it illustrates a point: this site *does* have "statheads" who don't care for opinions without appending numbers. I almost think this RZ needs to be split into separate "Community of Reds Fans" and "Nerds with Beer" forums. I am very much of the abstract type and know that there many things in this world that don't need "numbers" to support the obvious, but I find it incredibly difficult to post anything here with fear of reprisal from those who think otherwise.
    Please, save the "nerds with beer" stuff. Besides, if they had beer they would have friends, thus ending any possible nerdom.
    "I saw Wedding Crashers accidentally. I bought a ticket for Grizzly Man and went into the wrong theater. After an hour, I figured I was in the wrong theater, but I kept waiting. Thatís the thing about bear attacks. They come when you least expect it."-Dwight K. Schrute

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  3. #197
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    If you don't know what your rep points are you can't really complain about it.

    And people who DO complain about it should be dealt with.
    Go Gators!

  4. #198
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    Just one thought.. Why do people want to hide rep points?
    Same reason they wanted to hide "Subscriber/Non-Subscriber" last go around: people see a big rep number and feel their being pushed around.

    I was on the wrong side of that argument as a relative newbie to the board (who was put off by the fact that my knowledge of the game of baseball needed to grow) last go around. I felt threatened by not being the smartest or most clever person in the room and the natural response was to get defensive and blame people who I thought were hiding behind a title (or, in this case, high rep score).

    Truth was, when I started reading what they were saying and educating myself, I realized that they weren't hiding behind anything but, rather, putting information out there that I could learn and grow as a fan from.

    Hiding rep points is merely re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic. It's not like people are going to stop fighting or stop creating noise and disharmony on the board just because suddenly they can't see the rep score of someone.
    Championships Matter.
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  5. #199
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    My suggestions:

    1) Do not allow new registers to post for 30 days. - You have to learn a bit about the board before you are allowed to post - or create a "new poster" forum for them to wade into. GL
    I've found some forums like that. The problem is, I don't want a waiting period. I'll just find another forum that doesn't have a waiting period.

    In order for the community to remain viable, you need good new posters coming in. Maybe some people will register, bookmark the site, and then return in 30 days (which really doesn't accomplish much), but I'd think most people would give up.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  6. #200
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    My take is that far more often it's someone using the word "opinion" as a shield against the facts that have been presented to them. Numerous times in the past week I've run into posters making claims that are simply contrary to some rather basic evidence and instead of using that evidence to alter their opinion they've griped that they should be allowed to have an opinion without having numbers thrown at them. Sorry, but (and this is a made-up example) if you want to claim the Reds are the best triples hitting team in history and there's a quick and easy numerical test that proves you wrong, then it's for you to recognize that they keep score in baseball and that your perception doesn't trump what's actually happened.

    This gets back to some of the topics that might be fodder for "beaten to death" forum. For instance, we've been through an incredibly tedious discussion over the years about whether the Reds strike out too much to have a good offense. As it turned out, they were able to lead the league in scoring while also leading it in Ks (just like BRM). It also turned out the team had one of the more consistent offenses in baseball. Now that doesn't mean there aren't things the team could do in order to score more, but it does mean that as board we've seen these arguments tested and a definitive answer has been given -- as long as you get on base and hit for power, whiffing like crazy won't prevent you from scoring gobs of runs. We KNOW this. It's no longer needs to be a matter for opinion on this board and having to give equal weight and credit to the opinions of the folks who haven't learned it shatters the boundaries of common sense.

    I mentioned this in another thread and I'll repeat it here. We've covered a lot of ground in six years. In general it shouldn't be the job of the board to repeat itself for newer posters, it should be the job of the newer posters to catch up to where the board has progressed to. There's almost an endless supply of topics out there and we don't need to keep running over the same ones or spinning our wheels because someone doesn't understand when they've formed a half-baked opinion.

    Speaking of wheels:



    Amen.

    Isn't this the reason we have ORG and Reds Live? If you want to avoid rehashed topics and "newbies" covering a topic that's been beaten dead, then avoid the Live side of the board. Boss went through the trouble to create a board that would be free of these instances, and it still isn't enough.

    The rep system doesn't seem to have done a single positive thing. Those over 200 points still complain that the quality of posts is lacking. Those under 200 are a mix of indifference, resentment, or envy when it comes to reputation. I really like the idea of separate boards.

    ORG is a place that should have a higher standard for post content. I don't expect that as much on Live. The problem I have is when people from the ORG side hold the Live board to an ORG standard. I'm sorry, but if that is the case, then why have two separate forums?
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  7. #201
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    Same reason they wanted to hide "Subscriber/Non-Subscriber" last go around: people see a big rep number and feel their being pushed around. .
    Hiding Rep points won't fix that. Even if you hide the "join date", people will still know who the old timers are.
    I guess if Boss and GIK hide rep points, they are also going to have to either give or remove Avatars for everyone, because then you could see who was a member that way..
    If one wants to remove every indication of who is in ORG and who isn't, what's the point of having two forums?




    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    Hiding rep points is merely re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic. It's not like people are going to stop fighting or stop creating noise and disharmony on the board just because suddenly they can't see the rep score of someone.
    That's my point.. then why hide them then? I suspect the main reason many people want to hide rep points is to make it even more difficult for people to get promoted to ORG. As I said, if that's the case, let's make ORG the closed forum.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  8. #202
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    I'm in favor of hiding Rep points from others (not ourselves - i.e you could see your own rep points) only because it appears some posters are resentful of other posters totals and they get talked about too much IMO.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  9. #203
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Today is a great example of the exclusion I talked about. No game thread here on Live so I am left to twiddle my thumbs. It is very frustrating.
    If we weren't all crazy we would go insane.-Jimmy Buffett

  10. #204
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by flynn78
    Today is a great example of the exclusion I talked about. No game thread here on Live so I am left to twiddle my thumbs. It is very frustrating.

    Game hasn't started yet, and you COULD start one you know.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  11. #205
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor
    Game hasn't started yet, and you COULD start one you know.
    I'm 0-1 as a starter of threads, but I will. You are right, I was looking for a 7:05 Ohio start. Kneejerk reaction. I will start the thread and risk it, but I guarantee nobody will show. Unless the want to prove me wrong.
    If we weren't all crazy we would go insane.-Jimmy Buffett

  12. #206
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    In my experience, and trust me I care very little about rep points or anything, the thing that bothers me as a newbie is that every time I even casually make a point it is met with arrogance. I mean, when I want to simply point out that, say, I like Felipe Lopez and think he is valuable, is it really necessary for five people to groan "Well, duh.. here is the link to the regression analysis we made last year which proved his run-share totals are exemplary."

    I appreciate statistics, I mean hell they are the foundation of Liberal Arts (though remember they usually lack the empirical power to prove anything), but just because you are good at statistics doesn't mean they are part of every discussion, and certainly doesn't give you a right to arrogantly demean other people.

    And for the newbies who are frustrated, I guess just keep in mind that this is an internet board, and if some people want to feel better about themselves because they spend five hours of their waking lives on an internet board... well, that's not really a very big deal, is it? Nothing here is worth getting especially heated about, unless you are a very bored person.

  13. #207
    Member TeamCasey's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    I started one. We'll see if I'm good luck for them tonight.

  14. #208
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    In order for the community to remain viable, you need good new posters coming in. Maybe some people will register, bookmark the site, and then return in 30 days (which really doesn't accomplish much), but I'd think most people would give up.
    Just a question here, but viable for what? this isn't a big business, it's not dependent on a lot of customers stopping in, a lot of posters register and don't say much for weeks and even months.

    Making people see what is and is not the norm isn't a bad thing, RZ isn't like the rest of the Reds forums that major on insults and "HE IS SUXR"
    Go Gators!

  15. #209
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    TC is a solid vet at game threads, she knows how to play the game.
    Go Gators!

  16. #210
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Let's all take a deep breath (everyone please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    To me, this is a big, big problem. Maybe the root of much of what bothers so many of us. Because one poster buys a statistical explanation doesn't mean it proves a thing to the other poster. Sometimes that evidence is clear to one poster but is not clear to the other. Statistics are not the total answer for some of us. You might cross a river that averages a depth of three feet, but I'm not going to do it.
    There's always degrees of relativism, but if you think Rich Aurilia should play 3B against RHPs because he's been a better hitter against them this season than Edwin Encarnacion then you're wrong. If you claim Paul Wilson was a really good pitcher for a few years, you're wrong. If you say batting average is the key percentage stat for an RBI man, you're wrong. If you say the GAB was a great hitters park in 2004, you're wrong.

    Sure, there are statistical "explanations," but there are also statistical statements. They've played the games and here's what happened regardless of what you 'buy." It's not even a stats argument. It's a recorded history argument. Sometimes people are just flat wrong and there's no getting around it. I'm not going to pretend wrong is an opinion. I'm not going to mollycoddle wrong. If you write something that just doesn't line up with the facts then that's on you, not the person who pointed out your mistake.

    The stats may not be the total answer, but if the definitive record of what's actually happened runs counter to your opinion then it's incumbent upon you to figure out how to reconcile that conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    As I see it, the problem is when one doesn't see the "evidence". Who gets into the snit? One is a statistical guy and he wants a statistical response from the guy who isn't inclined that way.
    I sincerely doubt many, if any, "statistical guy(s)" expect a statistical response from someone who isn't inclined that way, but it would be nice if the non-statistical person could acknowledge when a gaping hole in his/her perception has been found. I mean, if you claim that hitch in a player's swing prevents him from hitting lefties well and then it's pointed out that said player actually hits lefties pretty well, then it's time to reconsider your stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    The statistics that some believe prove something don't prove a thing to others. I won't get into the strikeout thing, but the "clear-cut evidence" isn't clear-cut to some of us. I really don't appreciate someone throwing a number at me and saying that proves your wrong now go away until you come up with a staistic. I left the board last summer when I was called a 98 pound weakling and a girl by a poster simply because I had no desire to make an in depth statistical analysis to prove a comment, that was actually a side to my point.
    Well, I will get into the strikeout thing. The Reds strikeout a lot. They also score a lot. One does not prevent the other. Whether you're a good offense runs along lines that are totally irrelevant to your strikeout totals. Whether you're a good offensive player runs along lines that are totally irrelevant to your strikeout totals. It is clear-cut. We've seen it put in action in front of our very eyes in recent years. The evidence couldn't more overwhelming. I'm not going to act like that's not the case because it's a concept that you haven't embraced. I don't care if you don't have an in-depth statistical response to it because there is no in-depth statistical response to it. There's no in-depth any kind of response to it. It just is.

    We all understand that hitters attempt to make meaningful contact as a function of their job, but outs happen. You can stick strikeouts in a big pile with popouts (my personal peeve), groundouts, lineouts and flyouts. Outs is outs. It's how many you make (or really don't make) that counts, not what kind you make (with the exception of double plays, those are evil). Don't go away. Don't come up with a statistic. Just understand that for the simple truth it is. Are there corollaries off of that worth discussing? Sure and have at it, but don't tell me a player or a team is no good at the plate because he/it whiffs too much. That dog don't hunt.

    I also think it should be noted that a lot of what we see on this board isn't stats vs. no stats. A lot of the no stats crowd, I find, is oddly and obsessively reliant on a handful of rudimentary stats. Batting average is an important component of the things that drive an offense (OB and SLG), but telling me one guy is a .281 hitter and therefore better than this other guy who is a .267 hitter isn't going to go very far. You could be talking Jeff Treadway (.281) and Mike Schmidt (.267) for all I know and I am going to care intensely about the vast universe outside of their BA totals. You can claim BA is the end-all, be-all for summing up an offensive, but that IS a statistical argument you're making and I've got the sum total of baseball history backing up my contention that you're wrong. In that case I'm not looking common ground or to make you feel good about your opinion. That's a you-get-it-or-you-don't moment.

    And don't take that to mean BA is a totally worthless topic. If you want to make the case that Player J, given his secondary offensive skills, needs to hit .280 in order to be a plus at the plate, then that's a perfectly worthwhile point to make.

    Just as an addendum, if you're going to talk about a player's offensive performance, you can expect statistics to enter into the discussion. If you're going to compare players against their positional counterparts in the rest of the league, you can expect statistics to enter in the discussion. And if you're going to talk about statistics (e.g. runs scored, RBI, pitcher's wins, team W-L) then you probably ought to expect statistics to enter the discussion.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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