Shawn Estes

[guernsey]

Originally posted by ramp101
estes will hurt this team more than he will help it...i think that is what guernsey is saying

No, I don't think this deal will help or hurt the team. Estes isn't the answer to get the Reds to the post season this year. There is no answer. It's not going to happen. But to think the Reds got an antique in exchange for four pieces of junk is foolhardy. This trade was nothing more than re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[RollyInRaleigh]

I know everyone is frustrated with the Reds play as of late, myself included, but if the Reds would have won 2 of 3 from the D-backs, the majority of people who have been "poo-pooing" this trade would probably have a totally different outlook. I take that back, they would be griping for the sake of hearing themselves gripe.

I don't see it as a bad deal for the Reds. They gave up very little and took on no salary as has been mentioned. Gullet has a great history of success with guys like Estes. He definitely is no 6 million dollar man now, and just maybe Gullett can work his magic again, and Estes re-signs with the Reds for a reasonable amount. This is the way Bowden has to operate with this club, and he has had a lot of success with it.

Bowden is not going to be able to go out and get the "stud" that some of you are pre-occupied with. Lindner and Allen are not going to let that happen. To criticize Bowden for trying is just not thinking straight, of course, if he didn't do anything, he would be criticized too. We gave up no top-notch prospects and we took on no more salary. What's not to like? And if you don't like it, what would you have done differently, considering the financial constraints that Jimmy B operates under. My God, the guy is working and trying.

[Raisor]

Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
And if you don't like it, what would you have done differently, considering the financial constraints that Jimmy B operates under. My God, the guy is working and trying.

As Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no try!"

What would I have done differentlly? Put Chen and Reitsma in the rotation.

Reitsma is better then Estes, right now. His ERA is better then a run/game better, and he gives up less baserunners.

For goodness sake, Chen's pitched only 13 inning in the second half this season. The guy needs to be going every 5th day or he needs to be in AAA, starting.

[guernsey]

Before we assume the Reds didn't give up anyone as the PsTBNL, let's remember that David Espinosa wasn't among JimBo's 'untouchabes' and he was the only leadoff candidate the Reds had in their system.

[M2]

First off, all the credit in the world to JimBo for aggressively chasing the division title. I don't often disagree with Guernsey, but I don't believe the Reds are too far back for Estes (provided he pitches well) to make a difference. They play seven games each against the Cardinals and Astros over the next three weeks. If they go 5-2 in against both of those clubs, the Reds chances are alive and well. Add to that the fact that the team's final 23 games will be played against the The Sisters of the Poor and the Reds seem even more viable. This is no time to quit and I'm pleased to see the organization chasing the brass ring.

gm's comparison to Pete Schourek is a good one. Pete was kind of soft, but he had ability. Estes fits the same mold. If anything, Estes has more ability. Gullett might be able to turn this guy into a killer. If he pitches well down the stretch, I'd like to see the Reds keep him.

To give the Mets credit, Feliciano could be a major league reliever in the not-too-distant future and Andujar has electric skills (and some command of the strikezone to boot).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Reds have four PTBNLs lurking out there? Wonder who they'll be.

[guernsey]

"If they go 5-2 in against both of those clubs ..."

And if we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.

The Reds have losing records against both of these teams, and I don't see the acquisitions of Moehler, Dempster and Estes are going to change that.

The Reds face Oswaldt tomorrow and Wade Miller on Sunday or Monday, and the Reds haven't been able to touch those guys.

Hey, everyone has to make their own decision on when they think that the pursuit of the pennant is over. Some give up in spring training, some in June, others when the magic number comes up. I've made my decision. Doesn't mean I expect anyone to agree with me or that anyone else is not right for not agreeing with me.

[NCRed]

I will agree that it is time to put a fork in us to see if we are done but I will wait till Monday. There is no turning back now, anything less than 3 wins this series and 3 next week against STL will be unacceptable. You are right, there is no evidence that we can do it. I tell you that I hated being swept by the Rockies worse that the DBacks. Last week sucked.

I am torn between deciding what our real needs our. Obviously a front-line starter but offensively we need something too. I think Mateo and Larson are 2 hitters we could use in the line-up, but how do get them in. Maybe we will have to lose a Dunn or Kearns to get an ACE. A high OBP lead-off hitter is also needed.

NOw, one area we need to change is the closer spot. A dont know if Danny can start but 7 BS killed us. Make 4-5 of those saves and we are in first place still (maybe) The Reds have evidence that they can find good closers so that is good. I hope the FO recognizes it is time for a change.

Boone and Knight are a dangerous combination and I feel are not capable of sustaining any success.

OH well, I will keep bleeding RED

[M2]

Boiled down, the team that wins the division will have to play well. The Reds are still in a position where if they play well they can win the division.

I'm not saying they will or that it's likely, I'm just saying that they still hold much of their destiny in their hands.

IMO, it's a little early for fatalism (though that could change in a week, it's a volatile point in the season).

[LvJ]

I laugh at some of you. We got a full month of baseball left, and alot of it is with the Stros and Cards. Its not over yet folks.

[ramp101]

First off, all the credit in the world to JimBo for aggressively chasing the division title.

getting a bartolo colon would mean going after the division title aggressively....the expos did such a thing

getting 3 #3 pitchers is not considered going for it, but showing th fans they mesed up for not getting colon, so 3 is better than 1

[BigD]

A divisional title is not likely.

The Cards and Astros are more talented than us.

However, we have a team that can win a game or two. We play all the right teams the rest of the way, we need to play our competitors(Astros and Cards) and avoiding the other good teams in the NL and playing the weak ones(No games against ATL, LA, SF, 3 against ARI). I have no clue on the Astros or Cardinals schedule left. But I think it is possible to do, not likely but possible.

[buckeyenut]

Originally posted by ramp101


getting a bartolo colon would mean going after the division title aggressively....the expos did such a thing

getting 3 #3 pitchers is not considered going for it, but showing th fans they mesed up for not getting colon, so 3 is better than 1

Getting Bartolo Colon at the price that was paid would mean selling out A LARGE CHUNK of the future for a shot at the division title right now. MON could afford to do that because they quite possibly have no future.

Getting 3 #3 pitchers for next to nothing is a pretty good alternative. Now if these guys would just pitch like #3 pitchers for once.

[ramp101]

hey, i personally think giving up some of the farm for an ACE is worth it

[gm]

"I would be much more inclined to dump players before the end of the month versus picking up 6 week rentals that even worse than our AAA options."

(More evidence that Gullett prefers working with veteran pitchers, as opposed to youngsters, like Acevedo...and Reitsma?)

http://www.activedayton.com/ddn/spor...0816trade.html

"...Gully has liked [Estes] for quite a while. Over his last five starts he really, really threw like he had in the past. Our hope is that he throws the next five for us like he threw the last five."

Gullett likes the veteran presence Estes brings.

"He is a veteran guy who is very capable," said Gullett. "He has been inconsistent for whatever reason. I haven't been around him, so I can't tell why, but when he is on he is capable of shutting any opponent down. It is not like we're putting a rookie into a pennant race."

[gm]

"gm's comparison to Pete Schourek is a good one. Pete was kind of soft, but he had ability. Estes fits the same mold. If anything, Estes has more ability. Gullett might be able to turn this guy into a killer. If he pitches well down the stretch, I'd like to see the Reds keep him."

For the record, steve4192 beat me to the "Schourek comparison" by a few minutes, yesterday.

But I did raise the question "should the Reds be interested in acquiring Estes?" about a month ago, and IIRC M2 was the only respondent to express favor with the idea

Don Gullett's ability to recondition veteran pitchers may have worked against the organization's possibility of developing young starting pitchers over the last 10 years. This has been suggested before, and it bears repeating now. Bowden knows he can acquire retreads and hand them over to Don...so the team's patience with young starters has been short.