Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 52

Thread: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    14,289

    Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    It does not seem that these hitters try to beat the shift by hitting to the opposite field. They seem to pull the ball right into the shift much of the time. Griffey, in particular, hits a lot of balls to the right side, directly into the shift.

    I have heard that they should bunt to beat the shift. I don't agree with that. But shouldn't they hit the ball to the left side to try to take advantage?
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-12-2006 at 11:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Miskatonic University
    Posts
    4,302

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    But shouldn't they hit the ball to the left side to try to take advantage?
    If it were that easy, they probably would. Of course, maybe it is easy. What do I know, anyway?

    And I do think they should bunt more often when the shift is on, if for no other reason than to keep the defense honest. I've seen Junior drop a bunt down the 3B line more than once for a hit when the shift is on.
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
    -Ken Griffey Jr.

  3. #3
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    If it were that easy, they probably would. Of course, maybe it is easy. What do I know, anyway?

    And I do think they should bunt more often when the shift is on, if for no other reason than to keep the defense honest. I've seen Junior drop a bunt down the 3B line more than once for a hit when the shift is on.
    Agreed.

    Griffey has dropped one down here and there, and I think Dunn should do the same, since the last thing they'll expect is Adam Dunn to drop down a bunt when the 3B is playing SS almost. I'm not sure that it will really keep the defense all that honest in the short run, but in the proper situation, Dunn dropping one down may do wonders for future PAs.

  4. #4
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    34,844

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Dunn has been working on going the opposite way more lately. I believe he had two or three opposite field doubles in Wrigley Field (plus another that was ruled foul when replay showed it looked fair) and an opposite field home run in that series. Now that I looked at his hit chart, six of his seven XBH that year at Wrigley have been to the opposite field. In the recent Cardinal series he doubled to deep left-center and also just missed a HR on a deep flyout to LF. The most recent Cubs series featured an opposite field home run off Greg Maddux on a fastball down and away.

    This shows that he is at least trying - this is not something that can be done overnight. Dunn has a lot of work ahead of him in terms of getting away from being a dead pull hitter like the previous regime wanted, and so far I am pleased with how well he has adjusted. His double totals have gone up and home runs are still there. This year can be the learning curve, next year is when I expect Dunn to reap the benefits of working with Chambliss and really seeing his batting average go up as a result of using left field and left-center more often.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  5. #5
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    4,139

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    I haven't looked at Dunn's chart lately, but ....

    it seems to me that when he goes the opposite way, he is hitting the ball in the air. Most, if not darn near all, of his ground balls are towards the right side. Thus the infield shift.

    GL

  6. #6
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    But shouldn't they hit the ball to the left side to try to take advantage?
    Generally when HR hitters with uppercut swings hit the opposite way the ball is hit in the air because they don't roll their top hand. It is extremely difficult for them to hit ground balls the other way. The Cards always put the shift on Casey as well.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    14,289

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    Generally when HR hitters with uppercut swings hit the opposite way the ball is hit in the air because they don't roll their top hand. It is extremely difficult for them to hit ground balls the other way. The Cards always put the shift on Casey as well.
    Makes sense. Would think that Griffey could exercise sufficient bat control to beat the shift if he wants to. He is such a good hitter one would expect him to be able to do that. I haven't looked at the numbers but the shift seems to be costing him a lot of hits.

  8. #8
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,712

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    The defense will be more than happy to see Griffey and Dunn bunting. The only time that seems to be a good idea is when multiple runs are needed late in the game. Otherwise, the pitcher and D are more than happy to see a slugger bunting.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  9. #9
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Miskatonic University
    Posts
    4,302

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    The defense will be more than happy to see Griffey and Dunn bunting. The only time that seems to be a good idea is when multiple runs are needed late in the game. Otherwise, the pitcher and D are more than happy to see a slugger bunting.
    That's the argument, but I posit that if "the book" on Dunn were to read that he might drop down a bunt, teams will stop shifting on him, and more of his hits will fall in. I don't think you'd have to do it more than once in a series.

    And with the shift on, a properly-executed bunt will still put Dunn on base. If a walk is as good as a single, why isn't a bunt single as good as a walk?
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
    -Ken Griffey Jr.

  10. #10
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    4,139

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    That's the argument, but I posit that if "the book" on Dunn were to read that he might drop down a bunt, teams will stop shifting on him, and more of his hits will fall in. I don't think you'd have to do it more than once in a series.
    I disagree. They are happy to give up the bunt instead of the 2Bs and HRs a guy like Dunn can give you. If Dunn starts to lay down bunts, I doubt the shift goes away. A bunt attempt by Dunn is a win considering the damage he can do if you throw him strikes.

    And with the shift on, a properly-executed bunt will still put Dunn on base. If a walk is as good as a single, why isn't a bunt single as good as a walk?
    The difference is that a walk means the pitcher won't throw strikes to you out of fear. Your only alternative is to expand your zone, not a good idea. You are talking a walk over swing at balls. Good trade-off.

    However, if you are bunting, the pitcher is willing to throw you strikes. You are now opting for a bunt over attempting to drive the ball. IMO, bad trade-off for a guy like Dunn.

    To me there is a Grand Canyon of difference between the two scenarios. One otpimizes the situation, the other .. likely not.

    GL

  11. #11
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Miskatonic University
    Posts
    4,302

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    However, if you are bunting, the pitcher is willing to throw you strikes. You are now opting for a bunt over attempting to drive the ball. IMO, bad trade-off for a guy like Dunn.
    GL
    I'm probably not following your train of thought correctly, but if, as you say, a willingness to bunt means pitchers are more willing to throw you strikes, Dunn would benefit there as well. He attempts to bunt on strike 1, shows bunt and then drives the ball on the second pitch - and the shift ain't there anymore, because he's already shown bunt.

    I'm missing something here, undoubtedly. Anyone care to clue me in?
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
    -Ken Griffey Jr.

  12. #12
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Back in Florida
    Posts
    8,158

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    I'm probably not following your train of thought correctly, but if, as you say, a willingness to bunt means pitchers are more willing to throw you strikes, Dunn would benefit there as well. He attempts to bunt on strike 1, shows bunt and then drives the ball on the second pitch - and the shift ain't there anymore, because he's already shown bunt.

    I'm missing something here, undoubtedly. Anyone care to clue me in?

    The shift isn't going away when he shows bunt. He tried this against the Cubs. Ramirez took a couple of steps towards third and they waved him back into the shift.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

  13. #13
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    4,139

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    I'm probably not following your train of thought correctly, but if, as you say, a willingness to bunt means pitchers are more willing to throw you strikes, Dunn would benefit there as well. He attempts to bunt on strike 1, shows bunt and then drives the ball on the second pitch - and the shift ain't there anymore, because he's already shown bunt.

    I'm missing something here, undoubtedly. Anyone care to clue me in?
    What I was saying, is that in order to bunt, they have to throw you a strike in the first place. No reason to bunt a pitch a foot outside, take the walk and ensure 1B in that case.

    If they are willing to throw you a pitch in the zone that you can effectively bunt, I'd rather see a guy like Dunn taking a full cut on it.

    GL

  14. #14
    Member CTA513's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    10,719

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    The defense will be more than happy to see Griffey and Dunn bunting. The only time that seems to be a good idea is when multiple runs are needed late in the game. Otherwise, the pitcher and D are more than happy to see a slugger bunting.

    Maybe if they bunt they could set the record for most infield singles in a year?





  15. #15
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    55,717

    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    The defense will be more than happy to see Griffey and Dunn bunting. The only time that seems to be a good idea is when multiple runs are needed late in the game. Otherwise, the pitcher and D are more than happy to see a slugger bunting.
    This is my thinking on it as well, HR or bunt? and with those guys speed they have a decent chance to throw them out on a bunt.
    Go Gators!


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25