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Thread: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

  1. #16
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    However, if you are bunting, the pitcher is willing to throw you strikes. You are now opting for a bunt over attempting to drive the ball. IMO, bad trade-off for a guy like Dunn.
    GL
    I'm probably not following your train of thought correctly, but if, as you say, a willingness to bunt means pitchers are more willing to throw you strikes, Dunn would benefit there as well. He attempts to bunt on strike 1, shows bunt and then drives the ball on the second pitch - and the shift ain't there anymore, because he's already shown bunt.

    I'm missing something here, undoubtedly. Anyone care to clue me in?
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  3. #17
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Personally I see that approach taking away the power threat and thus making the shift work, whether the player "bunts" or attempts a dink to LF.
    Are you saying then that they shouldn't try to use the shift to their advantage, or that the shift can't be used to the advantage of the batter?
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  4. #18
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    I'm probably not following your train of thought correctly, but if, as you say, a willingness to bunt means pitchers are more willing to throw you strikes, Dunn would benefit there as well. He attempts to bunt on strike 1, shows bunt and then drives the ball on the second pitch - and the shift ain't there anymore, because he's already shown bunt.

    I'm missing something here, undoubtedly. Anyone care to clue me in?

    The shift isn't going away when he shows bunt. He tried this against the Cubs. Ramirez took a couple of steps towards third and they waved him back into the shift.
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  5. #19
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    Are you saying then that they shouldn't try to use the shift to their advantage, or that the shift can't be used to the advantage of the batter?
    I'm saying that any attempt to defeat the shift by playing small swing baseball makes the shift successful.

  6. #20
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    If they're shifting, they're also pitching you inside, to try to force you to hit into the teeth of the shift. Hitting it where it's pitched will be pulling the ball in that case.

    Unless you are adept at "inside-outing" the pitch, as guys like Larkin and other bat-control hitters have done over the years. It's not something that comes natural. It's a technique that takes a lot of practice. Very unlikely that Griffey or Dunn has ever even tried to do it.
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  7. #21
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    The only real hits I see the shift taking away are a few that would probably find their way into center field. Griffey's been robbed of a few of those. The one's being fielded by the second baseman in short right field would be fielded by the second baseman at the edge of the cut instead.
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  8. #22
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    The defense will be more than happy to see Griffey and Dunn bunting. The only time that seems to be a good idea is when multiple runs are needed late in the game. Otherwise, the pitcher and D are more than happy to see a slugger bunting.
    This is my thinking on it as well, HR or bunt? and with those guys speed they have a decent chance to throw them out on a bunt.
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  9. #23
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    I'm probably not following your train of thought correctly, but if, as you say, a willingness to bunt means pitchers are more willing to throw you strikes, Dunn would benefit there as well. He attempts to bunt on strike 1, shows bunt and then drives the ball on the second pitch - and the shift ain't there anymore, because he's already shown bunt.

    I'm missing something here, undoubtedly. Anyone care to clue me in?
    What I was saying, is that in order to bunt, they have to throw you a strike in the first place. No reason to bunt a pitch a foot outside, take the walk and ensure 1B in that case.

    If they are willing to throw you a pitch in the zone that you can effectively bunt, I'd rather see a guy like Dunn taking a full cut on it.

    GL

  10. #24
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    I'm saying that any attempt to defeat the shift by playing small swing baseball makes the shift successful.
    I agree, but...

    If Griffey bunts in certain situations often enough, will teams stop shifting? Remember, Dunn, Kearns, and Encarnacion are coming up. Do teams want to put runners on in front of those hitters? The three together will likely hit over 100 home runs. So, wouldn't Griffey bunting be like losing a battle to win a war if teams stop shifting?

    Also, I've been wondering about the shift and zone ratings. What is the effect?
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  11. #25
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Personally I see that approach taking away the power threat and thus making the shift work, whether the player "bunts" or attempts a dink to LF.
    So...bottom line is that there's nothing you can do beat the shift and you're just stuck with an increased out rate on well-hit balls that get fielded by an extra defender on the right side of the infield.

    That kind of sucks.
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  12. #26
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    So...bottom line is that there's nothing you can do beat the shift and you're just stuck with an increased out rate on well-hit balls that get fielded by an extra defender on the right side of the infield.

    That kind of sucks.
    I still don't agree with that line of thought. Let Dunn or Griffey start reaching base on a more regular basis via the bunt and then let a Kearns or Hatteberg drive them in... when the Reds start ringing up runs against opposing ballclubs because they're being shifting on (and getting to first almost every time they're at the plate because of the shift), the shift will stop.

    If Dunn has a runner or two already on base then yeah, don't bunt. that'd be silly. But if the bases are empty, get on base. Hopefully the inclusion of BA here won't make me a laughingstock, but it doesn't look like he's getting many hits with the shift, so when the bases are empty it doesn't matter whether he gets on via a walk or a bunt.

    In summation, to my mind the reward of dropping the bunt now and again isn't the base you take in doing so, it's getitng the opposition to stop shifting so much/so often/whatever. You don't shift on Juan Pierre because you know there's a good chance he'll bunt.

    This is all opinion and conjecture, btw. I don't know if it would all shake out like this - none of us do.
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
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  13. #27
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Let Dunn or Griffey start reaching base on a more regular basis via the bunt and then let a Kearns or Hatteberg drive them in
    Dunn already leads the team in runs scored, what else can you expect out of him.

    As for letting Hatteberg or Kearns drive them in, I'm all for that... where do I sign?

  14. #28
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Dunn already leads the team in runs scored, what else can you expect out of him.

    As for letting Hatteberg or Kearns drive them in, I'm all for that... where do I sign?
    It's not his job to score runs.
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  15. #29
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Do we have a virus on RZ? It seems every time I go to post in one with the name "Dunn" in it, a message comes back that they're closed

    Nope, must be another reason, this one let me post in it
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  16. #30
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
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    Re: Can Griffey/Dunn beat the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Dunn already leads the team in runs scored, what else can you expect out of him.

    As for letting Hatteberg or Kearns drive them in, I'm all for that... where do I sign?
    It's not what I expect out of Dunn - I'm quite happy with what Dunn gives the Reds now. The question is, if there's a chance that he can produce more, doesn't it behoove the team to find out?
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
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