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Thread: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

  1. #16
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Wow Jerry.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    I wonder who told Narron to let McCracken be the first guy to pinch hit in a game?

    :ughmamoru

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    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker
    I think this was Yan's test to see how he'd do. He flunked test #1 spectacularly. It will be interesting to see if he gets more chances.
    His track record as a marginal 11th/12th pitcher is well established. He should be kept as far away from high leverage innings as possible. Bringing him in to pitch in those situations is simply playing with matches.
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    So what happens when you have more than one tight situation? Put your best reliever in RF until he's needed again?
    No, and you can't necessarily use your best reliever in every game, regardless of the situation, unless you want his arm to fall off. A manager has to guess as to when the crucial part of the game is, and take into account how much work his ace reliever has already had. Automatically "saving" your closer for the ninth inning, regardless of the situation in the 6th, 7th or 8th inning, is mindless decision-making by a manager.
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  6. #20
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    His track record as a marginal 11th/12th pitcher is well established. He should be kept as far away from high leverage innings as possible. Bringing him in to pitch in those situations is simply playing with matches.
    So you pick your poison. Yan or White or Weathers. If Narron would have brought White in and he gave up a hit, people would have been crying for Yan who pitched well in every appearance before that one. He could have gone with Weathers but he's been pretty unreliable as of late and has been fighting a case of tendinitis. I'm not saying Yan is the second coming of Rob Dibble but there weren't/aren't a lot of options in that pen.
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    His track record as a marginal 11th/12th pitcher is well established. He should be kept as far away from high leverage innings as possible. Bringing him in to pitch in those situations is simply playing with matches.
    So is bringing in ________, ________, and/or _________. (Insert Reds bullpen member here.)
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    No, and you can't necessarily use your best reliever in every game, regardless of the situation, unless you want his arm to fall off. A manager has to guess as to when the crucial part of the game is, and take into account how much work his ace reliever has already had. Automatically "saving" your closer for the ninth inning, regardless of the situation in the 6th, 7th or 8th inning, is mindless decision-making by a manager.
    Most managers aren't psychics. They don't know when a more crucial situation could arise. Let's take Saturday's game for example. You bring Coffey in that bases loaded situation instead of Yan. Let's say he gets out of it and the Reds score a run later on. Bottom of the 9th comes around and you no longer have Coffey available. Same situation comes up. Bases loaded, 2 outs and you have the 3 Stooges available to close it out. I don't know about you but I think nursing a 1 run lead in the 9th is a lot more crucial than a scoreless tie in the 6th. Even if you give up runs in the 6th, you still have 4 innings to come back. If you give up runs in the 9th you only have one shot and none if you are on the road.
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Can't we just make up a stat, like say a "Stop" for when a guy comes in anytime after the 5th inning with the tying or winning run left in scoring position by the previous pitcher and proceeds to get out of the inning (regardless of the number of outs it takes) without allowing any runs scored? And then can't we just make that stat more valuable than a "Save" and start paying our "stoppers" as such?

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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    Most managers aren't psychics. They don't know when a more crucial situation could arise. Let's take Saturday's game for example. You bring Coffey in that bases loaded situation instead of Yan. Let's say he gets out of it and the Reds score a run later on. Bottom of the 9th comes around and you no longer have Coffey available. Same situation comes up. Bases loaded, 2 outs and you have the 3 Stooges available to close it out. I don't know about you but I think nursing a 1 run lead in the 9th is a lot more crucial than a scoreless tie in the 6th. Even if you give up runs in the 6th, you still have 4 innings to come back. If you give up runs in the 9th you only have one shot and none if you are on the road.
    Yes, but if Yan gives up a hit or two you're not going to get that save opp in the 9th anyway. Your nails-closer will rust away if the relief corps can't carry a lead into the 9th, and he becomes a sunk cost.
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    You mean one day again... I'll argue that back in the day guys like Jim Bronson and Clay Carroll came in in that exact situation.

    I blame the save stat and the Rolainds Fireman award.
    Wayne Granger, Phil Regan, Cecil Upshaw, Sparky Lyle, early Rich Gossage, Ted Abernathy, Ron Perranoski, Eddie Watt, Wilbur Wood, Jim Brewer, Jim Hughes, Dick Radatz, etc.

    Our interim pitching coach was even one of those guys who came in early in close games and pitched 2-3 innings if needed.

    With relievers' contracts getting larger even in the setup role, such as Bob Howry who just blew threw town, a team who turns a Todd Coffey into a 60s-70s type reliever cannot be far away. But it takes some guts since the minute you go against the grain (Red Sox closer by committee was constantly getting "I told you so-ed" in the media) the scrutiny begins at the first failure.

    BTW, with respect to the title of this thread, I think Narron was simply pointing out that he is really thinking that the "closer" idea may not be the best game plan for a bullpen as thin as his.
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    A manager has to guess as to when the crucial part of the game is, and take into account how much work his ace reliever has already had. Automatically "saving" your closer for the ninth inning, regardless of the situation in the 6th, 7th or 8th inning, is mindless decision-making by a manager.
    How is a manager supposed to be able to guess when that situation will be in time to warm the guy up? That's why you only see it in the playoffs, and often only in elimination games. You can't be warming pitchers up and not using them and getting them up again later repeatedly, that causes damage, too. They could do it years ago because they had starters pitching complete or nearly complete games almost routinely. And, frankly, no one really cared all that much if they wrecked a pitcher's arm from overuse. It just isn't enough to have a relief ace, you really need 2.

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    Yes, but if Yan gives up a hit or two you're not going to get that save opp in the 9th anyway. Your nails-closer will rust away if the relief corps can't carry a lead into the 9th, and he becomes a sunk cost.
    I've been singing that song ever since our bullpen got thin in the post Sullivan, Williamson, Graves (before he blew up), 1st time Gabe White era. Keep on holding back that closer and he sits for days, or you put him in a blowout game "to get work." I can't wait to see the first manager defy the conventional "wisdom." I'm still waiting, though.
    Can't win with 'em

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  14. #28
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    I don't think this was Narron's intention, but I've heard about other managers that deliberately put incendiary relievers in to prove a point to the GM, i.e. "this is an example of the meatheads you've given me, please give me better players".

    Pay attention to the open sky

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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    I'm not saying Yan is the second coming of Rob Dibble but there weren't/aren't a lot of options in that pen.
    which should be a clue to the FO that something needs to be done. Simply recycling other teams waste products is not going to solve the problem. You either have to try a solution form within or pay to get one elsewhere.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Re: Narron blaming fans and media for switching Coffey to closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    which should be a clue to the FO that something needs to be done. Simply recycling other teams waste products is not going to solve the problem. You either have to try a solution form within or pay to get one elsewhere.
    i agree flyer86, but, its one thing to have a problem, its another to be able to solve it. im sure the fo knows the bullpen stinks. but who is out there that they can get right now that is any better than what they have already? i dont know, i just have to think few if any.


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